Straightforward, hard-to-answer-questions about the Bible/Christianity

Let's go over this piecemeal, shall we? God created mankind "perfect," or so you allege. Yet God created the temptation for man and created the desire for sin. God himself claimed to create evil itself, so it therefore stands to reason that perfection includes sin, suffering, death, etc.Where in that do you see perfect human beings made by a perfect God? "Perfection" is a completely subjective term relative to whoever thinks something is perfect or imperfect. Because how can you create imperfect beings and then get mad at them when they do what you designed them to do, which is sin? And please don't tell me he didn't create us to sin when there are none that are perfect and "none are righteous, no, not even one," according to David which was later repeated by Jesus? In fact, that we are imperfect and fallible is the ONLY reason we need salvation in the first place!You starting to see the circular logic?What purpose did it serve God to create a tree of knowledge of good and evil only to tell them not to go near it, especially when they had no concept of consequence? (Remember, they're perfect!)Why create it at all, since its only function is to tempt?Why create death and suffering when almost all of the focus is in the afterlife? Why is there even a physical universe when so much emphasis is on the heavenly realm? It doesn't make any sense.Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

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"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

Exactly.... What kind of mental gymnastics do you suppose it takes for a fundamental Christian to uncontradict that basic concept?

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"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

Welcome, Dr. Sing, to EvC It is of little use to attempt to define your version of perfection because it is subjective. Perfection is a concept, like infinity. We don't actually know what that looks like.Yet here we are trying to delineate between varying versions of perfection.... Isn't that contradictory? You are either perfect or imperfect. How could there be varying degrees of perfection if you cannot get more perfect than perfection? That's like saying there are varying degrees of receiving a perfect 100% on a test. It's either perfect or it isn't. The bottom line is that at any time God could have made the universe and man any way he wanted. Do you agree with that statement? That he chose to create sin and create in man a desire for sin, he is directly responsible for the outcome. Not much of a choice, now is it? That;s like saying we have the choice whether to eat or not. Technically we do have a choice, except the desire to eat is so strong that no one could follow through, and even supposing they did it would result in a slow, painful death. So it is with sin, and that is not man's fault. No, he could not have known, according to the bible itself. It stands to reason that Adam or Eve could not understand that it was wrong to disobey God BEFORE they ate of the fruit, no?How could they know it is wrong to eat the fruit if by eating the fruit is the only way to know what is good and what is evil?Are you beginning to see the circular logic?Did God not give the instruction BEFORE they ate of it?Worse than that, he entrapped them with created the tree to begin with. What purpose does it serve God to create this tree in the first place unless his real motivation is so that they would eat from it? Are you telling me that God in all his infinite wisdom could not have forgone the tree?Are you telling me that God had to create a Serpent that would beguile them? Come on. Stop placing all the blame on man when it is God, according to his own word, facilitated their undoing totally and completely.He did it on purpose so that man would fail.It's a set-up, a rouse, a sham... God not only created us with the desire to sin, he punished ALL of mankind for something that Adam and Eve had no real choice in.Is this your conception of perfection?Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

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"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

What does David, easily one of the most imperfect characters of the bible, have to do with Adam and God being perfect? Define "human perfection." To be perfect means to be without error or defect, yet David in the Psalms said that none are righteous, which is why we need Jesus in the first place. If we are all sinners then how does that relate to perfection?

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he chose to create sin and create in man a desire for sin, he is directly responsible for the outcome.

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Well, let's examine that: If God is the Creator of EVERYTHING, it stands to reason that he created sin. How could you say otherwise? The bible even corroborates this: "I am the LORD, and there is no other. I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create evil; I, the LORD, do all these things." -- Isaiah 45:6-7At least answer this simple question: If God created Adam "perfect," then how was he able to sin? God created everything and made everything according to his purpose, would you agree? He gave mankind his instincts and his desires, did he not? He is therefore directly responsible for the disposition of that which is created. How could it be any other way? You're forgetting one convenient detail. God created EVERYTHING, including mankind. I didn't create kids with knives, I didn't give them a desire to use knives, God did ALL of that. Any worldly analogy will fail for the simple fact that God is the creator of all and therefore has complete and total control over everything. We don't have that luxury.

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How could they know it is wrong to eat the fruit if by eating the fruit is the only way to know what is good and what is evil?

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Even IF that were the case (which no one knows), who put Satan there to begin with?!?! Which is totally USELESS if you don't understand what wrong is and have no concept of consequence. The simple illustration in Genesis is that mankind was created with innocence. God seemingly wanted to protect man from ever having to know what good and evil is. The problem is, he created the tree in their midsts, provided a serpent to trick them (even knowing their innocence), and gave them the desire to be inquisitive enough to eat the fruit.What then was their crime that ALL of mankind now gets to die? Exactly my point! And yet, what happened as a result? He would now die as a result of him innocently being tricked by the Serpent which God allowed.FACT:1. God dangled the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in their face. Was it really necessary to even create it? No, unless the whole purpose of the tree was a set-up to prove to man that they need God. Either way, God then is to blame.2. God told them not to eat it, but they could not have known it was wrong to do so until after-the-fact, which therefore makes it useless to tell them not to do it. It's like blaming a dog for pissing in the house when you only tell it not to one time. They don't understand, so giving them unreasonable demands and holding them accountable for their ignorance is unfair.3. God placed the Serpent in the garden and gave him unmitigated access to Adam & Eve.God at any time did not have to do any of those things. But he didn't. Since he didn;t, and since he's perfect, it stands to reason there is a very good reason why he purposely set man up for the Fall. First of all, the whole story is nonsense from start to finish and is about as believable as the 3 Blind Mice. But for now we'll just view the story for its own merits.Yes, God provided utopia and then took it away after setting up the Fall. And if they were greedy, then who's to blame for that, Dr. Sing? Did Adam and Eve create themselves? Who imparted their desires? Seems to me, that would be God. I'm not an atheist, Dr. Sing. Listen, I was a devout Christian who toiled with these questions and made excuses for God. When you really start examining the bible, there are many inconsistencies and contradictions that make it difficult to swallow. I am willing to listen to what you have to say, but your answers simply don't get at the heart of the matter. It's not your fault. It's an indefensible position unless you can come to grips with the notion that God set it up for a reason. Perhaps he has benevolent intentions, but as per the story this is his doing.OR you need to come to grips with the notion that maybe the story is simply an allegory and was never intended to be taken literally and was meant to illustrate the futility of going against God's commands. The purpose of this forum, like all forums, is to discuss and debate various topics. If your faith is weak, you have the option to leave. We're having a discussion. If you cannot do that without resorting to ad hominem and a string of non-sequitors, then perhaps you don't belong here.My advice to you is to develop some thick skin and take it all in stride while at EvC or you'll never survive this place. I'm asking you to look at the obvious here. If you read the story in the context that it was written, it should be obvious that there is no other option.

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"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

Okay, and so where in there does Adam or Eve demonstrate perfection? How does that demonstrate perfection? Everyone has the best of intentions, but no one can fully live a life of purity. So what does that tell you? If not one human being in the history of life, except for Jesus (who is God, so it's pointless) can remain sinless then who made that happen? A few is an anomaly. Think how many humans have lived since the dawn of man considering how billions are alive right now. Where then does the defect lie? He could not have even known he screwed up, because his disobedience was not revealed to him until AFTER he ate of it. Even supposing it wasn't we all suffer for his actions. Does that sound consistent with omni-benevolence? I didn't. I didn't know I was beholden to you. I am aware of what the chapter is about, unfortunately it doesn't alleviate the clear message. In describing himself, he mentions that he creates evil. That would make sense since nothing that has been made could come in to existence without God. God creates everything.It's not even a simple theological question, it is a philosophical one. And a pretty easy one to figure out strictly by reading the bible. Riddle me this: If God didn't create sin, did he create the capacity for it? Or do you think that anything can come about aside from the will of God? There is no biblical evidence of that, being that the often described attributes of Lucifer are distinctly referring to the King of Tyre. Then be sure to read the whole bible and not only what is read on the pulpits. There are many verses that tend to be neglected because they're controversial, to say the least. "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all — old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." -- Ezekiel 9:5-7 The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." -- Hosea 9:11-16 If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted." -- Leviticus 26:21-22Sadly, these are only a handful of inglorious passages where God commands others to kill, even children and other innocents. Why does he exist at all, is a more applicable question. NEITHER needed to be created whatsoever, is the point! All they did was subvert man, right? That's placing a bottle of whiskey right in front of an alcoholic and telling him not to drink it.Just think about it logically. For what other purpose did God create this Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil if it was not intended to ever be discovered? Think it through. Eating it was all part of the master plan. Why did Satan rebel from God and when was that?

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I'm not an atheist, Dr. Sing.

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An open-minded skeptic. If it needs a label, call it "agnostic." I neither believe nor disbelieve in God. What? I'm not bothered by anything. We're just having a discussion on the "Straightforward, hared-to-answer-questions about the Bible/Christianity," as per the title of the thread. I think I have presented one of those questions that requires all sorts of mental gymnastics to try and wiggle out of.What should I be addressing if not the topic?

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"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

Sure you do, but you have to ask what sense it makes.

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"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

It means that you can't water down, minimize, or distract everyone from what was said clearly.

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In describing himself, he mentions that he creates evil.

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Whatever you want to call it, God kills indiscriminately. My translation says "evil." Interesting how it was the Israelites who wrote the bible. Strange coincidence that they were the chosen one's and also the authors. Suddenly I find myself wondering what the difference is between this and jihad. Agreed, which is the same difference. Remember how God said that he hardened Pharaoh's heart? Where is the freewill? It's like Judas, who was born to die. That was his purpose in life. You're still missing the 2-ton elephant in the room. God provided the schematic for everything. Whatever desires man had, whatever things that were necessary for their survival, God made. God imparted in man certain qualities and gave them certain instincts.How is it possible that God made Adam perfect, in accordance with his will, and yet Adam could somehow create sin all on his own? That doesn't make any sense.He gives you the desire for sinful ways, and then offers Jesus as your means of salvation.That's like an arsonist who sets your house on fire, but then comes to you as a firefighter to put the fire out that he originally started! None of that is in the bible. These are old traditions that have no biblical foundation. The role of "Satan" has changed dramatically throughout the bible. In the Old Testament he was a tempter, a tester of faith's, but all done by the will of God.By the New Testament he was no longer a facilitator of God's will. Now he was something far more diabolical and much more feared. Sure it does since God specifically created it for the purpose of giving the knowledge of good and evil. Yes, exactly right. My point is that God intentionally placed this in front him, tempted him with this test, all the while knowing he would fail because he couldn't have known the gravity of the situation; he couldn't have understood how severe and how harsh a punishment was coming. Or God failed Adam, depending on the perspective.

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"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

Double postEdited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

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"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

Sounds more like a self-fulfilling prophecy. I can feel the love of Jesus through you. Heaven must be packed with all of your converts. This is just a suggestion that you might find it more beneficial to your ministry, according to Galatians 5:Fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.Sinful nature: hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, envy, etcHmmmmmm????

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"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

No, it is talking about the King of Babylon. It is using imagery that the author thinks he exalts himself above the Most High. But it makes sense that maggots are spread all over Satan's body?

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"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

I was commenting on your behavior, not Peter Popoff.

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"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

It's already in context. If I gave a story about a man named Bob, and somewhere in the story of Bob I mention that I created evil, am I taking my attribute out context? No, obviously not. Especially if you are a literalist, which it sounds like a doctrine you ascribe to. Does that seem compatible with an all-loving and fair God? So in other words, your choice is made before the fact and I am wasting my time? It's common sense. All you have to do is look at it logically and stop giving the bible its authority on the account of the bible giving itself authority, because that's circular.The bible is the Word of God. "How do you know?" Because the bible says so. If God created Adam and created Satan, and nothing can exist apart from God's doing, how is it philosophically possible that sin just sprouted out of thin air? It can't. It does not make any sense. The fact that man has to wrestle his spirit against the flesh should be a good indicator that God gave you that flesh.The point is that he designed it that way. Perhaps he did it for contrast, but that much at least seems very obvious. But if that is the case, then God certainly does tempt, even if indirectly, because he created man according to his will. He imparted in mankind all of the properties he desired.Because God is theoretically perfect, he is incapable of error. If that is so, then he obviously intended for all this suffering to prove some cosmic point. I don't need to be told things to formulate opinions based on observations. No, I'm pointing out the contradictions. No, it's reverse psychology. He told us not to eat knowing all along we would be too enticed not to. What he obviously really wanted was for man to eat it, so he could prove his point that man needs God and that God is in control. We already know what the purpose of the tree was. The purpose is knowing what good and evil is. No, God is the issue since it's all his doing in accordance with his will. How can you blame Adam who didn't even know it was wrong to begin with until after-the-fact? How can you blame Adam when God gave the Serpent, the most cunningly evil created being ever to exist, unlimited access to beguile the world's most naive man and woman? How can you blame Adam for being inquisitive when God created the man to be that way?Are you beginning to see a pattern? Who is the common denominator? They couldn't know it was wrong if they hadn't eaten it. It spells it out plainly in the text! So any analogy is futile for the simple fact that you are skirting around that obvious problem.Even supposing we allow this analogy, when a kid burns himself on a stove the parents are still to blame because he is too naive to grasp the precaution. Same principle applies here to God, seems to me.Now, what I believe is that the Genesis narrative is not literal and was never intended to be viewed as literal. Jews the world mostly do not believe this is a literal story and find it amusing that so many Christians do.Like most fireside stories of their day, it is a metaphorical story used to teach us the importance of obeying God's principles. The funny thing is if we looked at the story from a literal point of view, God would be the biggest tyrant the world has ever seen because he has caused or own undoing.

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"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

You already provided the reference.

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"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

You keep glossing over my point that all these things need to be viewed in conjunction. I mentioned that Satan tempted him and that no one other than God allowed that to happen. Look at that in tandem with how utterly naive Adam & Eve were, which is no fault of their own, and of course they ate the damn fruit, which obviously seems like a huge set up. Again, Adam could have no academic concept of disobedience before he ate the fruit. It was only after that he realized his nakedness (sin). I already told you what I make of it -- a set up in the Garden! Satan doesn't exist in a vacuum or void, he operates where God places him. Yeah, exactly, impulsive like children. They're only crime is being stupid, which was God's fault. And their sentence? Life with the imminent possibility of all of humanity dying as a result.What a raw deal. Even if you try and place the blame all on Satan, the fact that God failed to protect the world's two dumbest people, and having the foreknowledge of what would take place as a result, makes him irrevocably liable. Whether God is speaking about physical or spiritual death is of no consequence for the single fact that death of any kind did not exist until the Fall. I assume you would agree. That being the case, what sense does it make to threaten people with something they literally had no concept of? They didn't know what death meant, they didn't know what right and wrong meant, at no time did God warn them of the wiles of the Serpent in a way they could understand, he creates a tree for which the only expressed purpose is to abstain from it, etc, etc.So where in there do you rightly see God absolved? Where in there do you see a sense of justness? Where in there do you rightly see A & E treated fairly?It doesn't make any sense, whatsoever. People are so used to hearing the pastor's rehashing over their tired soundbytes, no one stops to think about what they're reading intellectually. All they hear is God told them not to do it, and they did it. So they automatically assume it's their fault. Normally it would be their fault were it not for taking all this extraordinarily compelling information in that indicts God as the instigator.

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"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

Freewill is discussed in the NT and it is implied in the OT, but I would agree that one has to do some mental gymnastics in attempt to reconcile predestination vs freewill, as they seem to contradict at times. Yes, exactly my point. If God ultimately is in control of everything, then he would reasonably be responsible for how anything turns out, especially if he knows what will happen before it happens.That also brings up another question: If you know what is going to happen before it happens, how can you also have freewill? The Judeo-Christian God appears no different to me than any other god pagan god in human history insofar that the concept was created to explain the unexplainable and to attribute a moral precept in to life.

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"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston