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Author Topic:   Straightforward, hard-to-answer-questions about the Bible/Christianity
dennis780
Member (Idle past 3004 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 391 of 477 (565910)
06-22-2010 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 390 by DrJones*
06-22-2010 12:09 AM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
"It clearly says: if you see a woman you want, take her as your "wife", give her time to mourn, then fuck her."

I fail to see the latter. Sorry man.

Please show me where it says RAPE her, or take her against her will. I'm not seeing it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by DrJones*, posted 06-22-2010 12:09 AM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 392 by DrJones*, posted 06-22-2010 1:20 AM dennis780 has responded
 Message 397 by hERICtic, posted 06-22-2010 7:18 AM dennis780 has not yet responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1920
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 392 of 477 (565911)
06-22-2010 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 391 by dennis780
06-22-2010 1:12 AM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
I fail to see the latter.

and after that thou shalt go in unto her,

ie:nail her

Please show me where it says RAPE her, or take her against her will.

Please show me where the man is told to ask for the woman's consent before taking her as his wife.


It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by dennis780, posted 06-22-2010 1:12 AM dennis780 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by dennis780, posted 06-22-2010 2:29 AM DrJones* has responded

dennis780
Member (Idle past 3004 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 393 of 477 (565928)
06-22-2010 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 392 by DrJones*
06-22-2010 1:20 AM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
"Please show me where the man is told to ask for the woman's consent before taking her as his wife."

I can't, and neither can you. Going in unto her could very well mean taking her into your family, in your house, in your tribe, etc. This seems open to interpretation, but I can't see God saying rape her good. Sorry.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by DrJones*, posted 06-22-2010 1:20 AM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 404 by DrJones*, posted 06-22-2010 1:54 PM dennis780 has not yet responded

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 523 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 394 of 477 (565931)
06-22-2010 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 388 by dennis780
06-21-2010 10:41 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
dennis780 writes:

God was neutral on the subject of slavery


Yes, that's my stance, he at least condoned it. Thank you for confirming it once again.

because it was not BAD.

Slavery wasn't bad? Treating other people as your property is not BAD?

In fact, God wanted Joshua to kill Gibeon, along with the other tribes. God commands Joshua a number of times to leave no one alive, to kill the animals, and destroy the crops.

Yes, god's a very nice guy, I've always said that.

Lets put it into perspective for a moment. If you and I knew each other, and I lost everything in a fire. All my cattle, my house and crops...everything. Would you take me in at your house, and pay me to work for you?

1) slaves don't get paid.
2) no, I can't afford you. I would try to help you in any way yI could.

Because Biblically, this is slavery. Slaves were paid, allowd to have families, and leave with everything they came with.

No they weren't. And even if they were, they were still property. And I say it is wrong treating other people as property.

Even if slavery were seen as evil or bad (and in was in the case of the israelites and the egyptions), God does not turn a blind eye, but loves you for loving and obeying him, no matter the conditions.

He's a bit of a dick then.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 388 by dennis780, posted 06-21-2010 10:41 PM dennis780 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 396 by dennis780, posted 06-22-2010 7:10 AM Huntard has responded

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 2745 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 395 of 477 (565949)
06-22-2010 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 389 by dennis780
06-21-2010 11:06 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
Dennis writes:

[10] When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive,
[11] And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;

[12] Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare [1] her nails;

[13] And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.

[14] And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.
Deuteronomy 21:10-14

I don't see rape anywhere her.

Wow. So let me get this straight.

Hebrews invade. A solider sees a woman he wants to have sex with. He wants to make her his wife.

It clearly states what the soldier wants. Then it states if the soldier does not want her..he is to release her.

This is rape and slavery.

It does not say the women can refuse to go. It does not say she is asked permission. It does not say she can leave if SHE doesnt like him. It states the opposite.

Now you ignored my previous question.

You invade a land. You kill the husbands and sons of the women.

Do you really believe a woman then wants you to be her husband? Do you really think the woman FREELY decided they want to be with you?

Think about this honestly.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 389 by dennis780, posted 06-21-2010 11:06 PM dennis780 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 398 by dennis780, posted 06-22-2010 7:20 AM hERICtic has responded

  
dennis780
Member (Idle past 3004 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 396 of 477 (565950)
06-22-2010 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 394 by Huntard
06-22-2010 2:59 AM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
"Slavery wasn't bad? Treating other people as your property is not BAD?"

I have a nine month old. He's really cute right now, but when he gets older, he will learn responsibility, and work ethic, by doing chores around the house, and listening to his mother, and myself, when we ask something of him. The government says I am responsible for him until he is 18 years old (pretty sure it's the same in the US). So this person, of whom I am responsible for, performs work, for no money. How does this relationship work? He cares for me, and I care for him. Only difference between slaves in the Bible, and my son is this:

Cole is not getting anything for his work when he is free to go, other than the lesson.

"slaves don't get paid."

Not modern ones.

Colossians 4:1
1 Masters, give your bondservants what is just and fair, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven.

"He's a bit of a dick then"

Thats an opinion, not a fact. But God loves the humble man. To serve others is held in the highest regard by God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by Huntard, posted 06-22-2010 2:59 AM Huntard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 399 by hERICtic, posted 06-22-2010 7:20 AM dennis780 has responded
 Message 400 by Huntard, posted 06-22-2010 7:26 AM dennis780 has not yet responded

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 2745 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 397 of 477 (565951)
06-22-2010 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 391 by dennis780
06-22-2010 1:12 AM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
Dennis writes:

Please show me where it says RAPE her, or take her against her will. I'm not seeing it.

This is simple apologetics. You do not see a word, so you pretend the story line does not say what its actually stating.

Here is another example.

(Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

Rape is nowhere mentioned. Why do you think they kept the virgins? Ignore for a moment that CHILDREN were wiped out, not even in the heat of battle. After they were captured.

Why do you think they kept the virgins? Do you believe the virgins WILLINGLY gave themsevles up to the Hebrews? Do you think they had any choice?

(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

Notice it states FORCED labor. This is slavery. Why do you think god wanted the women alive? Do you think they had any choice? Do you think perhaps, just perhaps they were forced into sex?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB)

What do you think these "damsels" are for?

Regardless if these are rules for war, these acts of rape are accetped. These are acts selfish cold hearted man would come up with. Not a loving all powerful god. If you wish to believe your god did come up with these concepts and rules, he is just as an abomination as man.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by dennis780, posted 06-22-2010 1:12 AM dennis780 has not yet responded

  
dennis780
Member (Idle past 3004 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 398 of 477 (565952)
06-22-2010 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 395 by hERICtic
06-22-2010 7:07 AM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
"It clearly states what the soldier wants. Then it states if the soldier does not want her..he is to release her."

Yes. The victorious tribe cast lots on any spoils, being it women, gold, land, etc. No denying that.

"This is rape and slavery."

The other guy debating is intending to imply rape, but I answered this in my previous post. And not slavery, since if the man does not want to marry her, she is to go free, and cannot be sold.

"You invade a land. You kill the husbands and sons of the women."

This depends on the story you are refering to in the Bible. Killing only the men was not always the case.

"Do you really believe a woman then wants you to be her husband?"

Under the old covenant, it would be irrelevant. After her period of mourning, I would be entitled to marry her if I cast a lot for her.

"Think about this honestly."

Honestly, I think it's brutal. But I'm not a soldier, nor do I live under the old covenant. As well, I can't speak to the state of mind of the women or the soldiers.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by hERICtic, posted 06-22-2010 7:07 AM hERICtic has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 401 by hERICtic, posted 06-22-2010 10:53 AM dennis780 has not yet responded

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 2745 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 399 of 477 (565953)
06-22-2010 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 396 by dennis780
06-22-2010 7:10 AM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
I cannot believe (ok, part of me can) that you actually compared raising your son as being equal to taking a man captive and forcing him to do work.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by dennis780, posted 06-22-2010 7:10 AM dennis780 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 448 by dennis780, posted 08-31-2010 7:04 AM hERICtic has not yet responded

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 523 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 400 of 477 (565955)
06-22-2010 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 396 by dennis780
06-22-2010 7:10 AM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
dennis780 writes:

I have a nine month old. He's really cute right now, but when he gets older, he will learn responsibility, and work ethic, by doing chores around the house, and listening to his mother, and myself, when we ask something of him. The government says I am responsible for him until he is 18 years old (pretty sure it's the same in the US). So this person, of whom I am responsible for, performs work, for no money. How does this relationship work? He cares for me, and I care for him. Only difference between slaves in the Bible, and my son is this:

Cole is not getting anything for his work when he is free to go, other than the lesson.


Slaves didn't get paid, that's what slavery means, afterall. You are property and you o work without getting paid. Also, your son is not your property.

{ABE}: Also, what does this have to do with the fact that treating another being as property is not BAD according to you?

Not modern ones.

Colossians 4:1
1 Masters, give your bondservants what is just and fair, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven.


Ah yes, I can see the reasoning right now: "It's just and fair that my slave, who is, afterall, only property, gets nothing". See, slaves didn't get paid.

Thats an opinion, not a fact.

Well, if you treat people like that, I think you're a dick.

But God loves the humble man. To serve others is held in the highest regard by God.

I've been told the only thing required to go to heaven is to accept Jesus. That's it. I can work my ass off my whole life, doing nothing but good things, live according to god's laws, and I still won't go to heaven if I don't accept Jesus. This is irrelevant, therefore.

Edited by Huntard, : Added {ABE} bit


This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by dennis780, posted 06-22-2010 7:10 AM dennis780 has not yet responded

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 2745 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 401 of 477 (565994)
06-22-2010 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 398 by dennis780
06-22-2010 7:20 AM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
"It clearly states what the soldier wants. Then it states if the soldier does not want her..he is to release her."
Yes. The victorious tribe cast lots on any spoils, being it women, gold, land, etc. No denying that.

"This is rape and slavery."

The other guy debating is intending to imply rape, but I answered this in my previous post. And not slavery, since if the man does not want to marry her, she is to go free, and cannot be sold.

Eric writes:

I responded earlier, but alas...it seems my reply has gone into limbo. Ok, here goes again.

It is rape. Invading army sees a woman he wants. He makes her his wife. Thats rape. Do you really believe she wants to become his wife? Perhaps she might be a tad pissed at this invading army...the ones who killed her husband/sons/friends husbands,sons? The answer obviously is that she isnt willing. Now, since she is taken, then its slavery. Do you think a wife just sits around all day? She works. The woman is taken without her consent and for a month, forced to be his wife.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"You invade a land. You kill the husbands and sons of the women."

This depends on the story you are refering to in the Bible. Killing only the men was not always the case.

Eric writes:

You're flip flopping. You stated it was not slavery/rape bc all the men were killed. So now you're making it worse. You're agreeing that not all the men were killed. Therefore, there really isnt any reason to take any women at all then.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Do you really believe a woman then wants you to be her husband?"

Under the old covenant, it would be irrelevant. After her period of mourning, I would be entitled to marry her if I cast a lot for her.

Eric writes:

Whats irrelevent?


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Think about this honestly."

Honestly, I think it's brutal. But I'm not a soldier, nor do I live under the old covenant. As well, I can't speak to the state of mind of the women or the soldiers.

Eric writes:

So you admit its brutal. Yet you are arguing you do not have a problem with it. If its not rape or slavery, why is it brutal then?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 398 by dennis780, posted 06-22-2010 7:20 AM dennis780 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 402 by Artemis Entreri, posted 06-22-2010 11:59 AM hERICtic has responded

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2457 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 402 of 477 (566005)
06-22-2010 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 401 by hERICtic
06-22-2010 10:53 AM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
3 1. What this this have to do with Christianity or Jesus?

2. You cannot equate slavery with what you value slavery to be, you should look to see what slavery meant in that time and in this circumstance. Many cultures from ancient israelites to celts, to native americans practiced slavery, and while it was the same word it meant very different things in each culture, and was used in a different context in each culture.

Edited by Artemis Entreri, : i cant spell for shit


This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by hERICtic, posted 06-22-2010 10:53 AM hERICtic has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 403 by hERICtic, posted 06-22-2010 1:44 PM Artemis Entreri has not yet responded

hERICtic
Member (Idle past 2745 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 403 of 477 (566019)
06-22-2010 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 402 by Artemis Entreri
06-22-2010 11:59 AM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
I am using "slavery" as per described in the OT.

Were those "taken" allowed to leave or where they forced to stay and work?

Were the Hebrews slaves of the Egyptians? Did they have a choice in the matter?

Did women "taken" as spoils of war have a choice?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by Artemis Entreri, posted 06-22-2010 11:59 AM Artemis Entreri has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 405 by Phage0070, posted 06-23-2010 12:29 AM hERICtic has responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1920
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 404 of 477 (566025)
06-22-2010 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 393 by dennis780
06-22-2010 2:29 AM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
Going in unto her could very well mean taking her into your family, in your house, in your tribe, etc

And if she doesn't want to be taken into your family, house, tribe etc? Then what? The soldier who has killed her family and taken her as his property is going to just walk away?


It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by dennis780, posted 06-22-2010 2:29 AM dennis780 has not yet responded

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 405 of 477 (566092)
06-23-2010 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 403 by hERICtic
06-22-2010 1:44 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
hERICtic writes:

Were the Hebrews slaves of the Egyptians? Did they have a choice in the matter?

Funny you should bring that up. Are you sure that the Jews actually *were* enslaved by the Egyptians?

So far as I know that story only appears in the Bible and there is absolutely no corroborating evidence in the writings or archaeological leavings of any other civilization at the time, Egyptian or otherwise. What do you think is more likely; that Egyptians enslaved enough Jews to equal their own total population and yet never mentioned their existence, exodus, or subsequent wandering (or anyone else for that matter)... or that it is a fiction?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 403 by hERICtic, posted 06-22-2010 1:44 PM hERICtic has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 406 by hERICtic, posted 06-23-2010 7:59 AM Phage0070 has not yet responded
 Message 407 by Artemis Entreri, posted 06-30-2010 4:29 PM Phage0070 has responded

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