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Author Topic:   Did God say it, or did you say it?
greyseal
Member (Idle past 2095 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 76 of 127 (549121)
03-04-2010 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Peg
03-04-2010 4:31 AM


Re: actually...it's not that simple
Peg writes:

Greyseal writes:

So God in your opinion can't do anything supernatural, like, say, bringing the dead back to life? Or walking on water? Or making a bush burn without actually burning? Or turn water into wine or a staff into a snake?

Yes he can, but we are not talking about him manipulating physical laws, we are talking about him setting creation into motion.

He can, but he didn't.

Well go ahead, shoot; why not?

Edited by greyseal, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Peg, posted 03-04-2010 4:31 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Peg, posted 03-05-2010 4:19 AM greyseal has responded

    
Flyer75
Member (Idle past 656 days)
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


Message 77 of 127 (549127)
03-04-2010 7:53 AM


greyseal,

all good points. I don't know why people have to take God out of God in the creation story as if God is limited by science? I mentioned what you said in another post...if God can raise a person (his Son) from the dead in three days (which science surely can't explain or do) then why couldn't he have created the cosmos (I use that term to mean everything) in a way that still fits into the scientific realm? Is God that limited? Really?

Again, in my other post in another thread, it's why I understand the atheist much better then I can understand a theistic evolutionist. The atheist simply says, there is no God....fine. The theistic evolutionist says there is a God, but puts him in a little box to fit their "scientific" needs.


    
Peg
Member (Idle past 3163 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 78 of 127 (549227)
03-05-2010 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by greyseal
03-04-2010 7:10 AM


Re: actually...it's not that simple
greyseal writes:

He can, but he didn't.

Well go ahead, shoot; why not?

For the same reason that when he impregnated Mary, he didnt make her istantly pregnant with a 9 month old fetus in her womb....which he could have done if he so desired, but he didnt, he chose to do it another way.

Its not for us to demand a reason why he does things a certain way, we should just be grateful that he does.

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by greyseal, posted 03-04-2010 7:10 AM greyseal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by greyseal, posted 03-05-2010 9:58 AM Peg has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6500
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 79 of 127 (549243)
03-05-2010 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Flyer75
03-02-2010 9:28 AM


Bump
Flyer75,

Any chance of a response to my points in MSG 61. You have responded to other posts since then. I was hoping you might be able to back your assertions with some semblance of evidence.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Flyer75, posted 03-02-2010 9:28 AM Flyer75 has not yet responded

    
greyseal
Member (Idle past 2095 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 80 of 127 (549250)
03-05-2010 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Peg
03-05-2010 4:19 AM


Re: actually...it's not that simple
greyseal writes:

He can, but he didn't.

Well go ahead, shoot; why not?

For the same reason that when he impregnated Mary, he didnt make her istantly pregnant with a 9 month old fetus in her womb....which he could have done if he so desired, but he didnt, he chose to do it another way.

Its not for us to demand a reason why he does things a certain way, we should just be grateful that he does.

saying that he magically made Mary pregnant isn't a reason to disbelieve that he magically made the universe in six days!

It seems to me that it is your sensibilities upset by the thought that an all-powerful god could have made a planet which appears to be billions of years old in only 6 days some 6000 years ago, I'm not seeing proof, all I can see is your objection that "it's not possible". Is it not God who said "in me, all things are possible" ? ...actually it might not be, but it's something I've heard attributed to God.

I seem to recall you have no problem with Noah's ark, despite the mathematical impossibility of it all (enough food, water, ventilation for all the animals in the entire world on the finite-sized ark for a year, with only about 6 guys to muck it all out), you seem to be okay with manna from heaven, with parting the red sea, with people coming back to life, having blindness cured, having thousands fed with a few loaves and a few small fish, with stopping the rotation of the earth so that a certain group of stone-age warriors would have enough daylight...but apparently creating an entire universe in six days is beyond god's powers?

I'm not going to argue the validity of picking the timeless version of "yom" because it would seem possible you could be right, but I still don't see the proof - you can say "context context context" all you want, but it seems the author of that piece is using yom in the standard way we do, which is a valid use of the word "yom" as well as making sense in context, the only person I see demanding that it be taken otherwise is an understandably flawed human who can't quite swallow a miracle of that size.

God could quite easily have said "and lo, this day lasted a thousand years, a year for each a day in a year, and thousands of such years", but he didn't, or at least Moses didn't write that down...

Now I'm as flawed as the next guy, and the Truth isn't up to the democratic process besides, so you don't have to take my word for it, but it would seem you have YOUR interpretation and others have their own, with little but the loudness of voice of the participants to decide who is correct


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Peg, posted 03-05-2010 4:19 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Peg, posted 03-05-2010 2:53 PM greyseal has not yet responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 3163 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 81 of 127 (549283)
03-05-2010 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by greyseal
03-05-2010 9:58 AM


Re: actually...it's not that simple
greyseal writes:

I'm not going to argue the validity of picking the timeless version of "yom" because it would seem possible you could be right, but I still don't see the proof

the reason why i'm saying its not possible is becuase the proof that it was not done that way is all around us. The earth itself is the proof.

You know, when archeologists dig up artifacts from a site, they often say 'here is the proof that these people did this or that' .... the proof that the 'days' of genesis are much longer then 24 hours becaues the earth shows it to be.

Now you are right, I certainly do believe in the miracle of the bible, the manna, the red sea, the ark... and i believe these things because I believe that God has the power to manipulate physical laws...the laws that he created..when he wants to. But in the case of the genesis day, we have plenty of evidence that they were very long periods of time. The creation of physical things is not a miracle. It is a 'creation' It is the bringing together of physical matter whereas the miracles of the bible are the manipulation of that physical matter so that the laws that they are bound by are changed.

God can do both. He can create physical things and he can manipulate them.

greyseal writes:

the Truth isn't up to the democratic process besides, so you don't have to take my word for it, but it would seem you have YOUR interpretation and others have their own, with little but the loudness of voice of the participants to decide who is correct

Well i would have hoped that reason and logic would let the evidence decide...the evidence is an old earth. Therefore the Yom in this case must stand for a very long time.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by greyseal, posted 03-05-2010 9:58 AM greyseal has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Flyer75, posted 03-05-2010 5:55 PM Peg has responded

    
Flyer75
Member (Idle past 656 days)
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


Message 82 of 127 (549306)
03-05-2010 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Peg
03-05-2010 2:53 PM


Re: actually...it's not that simple
[qs=Peg]Well i would have hoped that reason and logic would let the evidence decide...the evidence is an old earth. Therefore the Yom in this case must stand for a very long time.[/quote]

Reason and logic don't explain the virgin birth, which you've stated you believed in. I'm with greyseal on this one and probably don't agree with him on much but I can't see how one can believe that just because the earth and science tell us things are old, doesn't mean that it wasn't created that way. You use the analogy of the 9 month virgin birth yet you would have to agree that Adam didn't go through that...he was created full grown, not as an infant. Why could an all powerful God not create stars billions of years away with light already showing to earth??? Is that so hard to believe? Really?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Peg, posted 03-05-2010 2:53 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Peg, posted 03-05-2010 11:55 PM Flyer75 has not yet responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 3163 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 83 of 127 (549344)
03-05-2010 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Flyer75
03-05-2010 5:55 PM


Re: actually...it's not that simple
Flyer75 writes:

Reason and logic don't explain the virgin birth

Yes it does. Doctors perform their own virgin births every day. IVF...im sure you've heard of it. If we can impregnate a woman using a means other then sex, then so can God.

Flyer75 writes:

You use the analogy of the 9 month virgin birth yet you would have to agree that Adam didn't go through that...he was created full grown, not as an infant. Why could an all powerful God not create stars billions of years away with light already showing to earth???

the difference is that there was a 'need' to create adam instantly....tell me why an eternal God would need to create anything instantly...he has all the time in the world to do what he wants.

Why would he spend eons of time doing absolutely nothing, then suddenly in the blink of an eye make the physical creation appear?

the truth is that he spent eons of his time in a creative process rather then sitting around doing absolutely nothing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Flyer75, posted 03-05-2010 5:55 PM Flyer75 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by hooah212002, posted 03-06-2010 12:15 AM Peg has not yet responded
 Message 111 by greyseal, posted 03-13-2010 3:18 PM Peg has responded

    
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 84 of 127 (549347)
03-06-2010 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Peg
03-05-2010 11:55 PM


Re: actually...it's not that simple
the truth is that he spent eons of his time in a creative process rather then sitting around doing absolutely nothing.

And yet, the end product still needed a do-over 3 times. I guess god should have taken a few more eons, eh?


"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Others—for example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einstein—considered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan

"On a personal note I think he's the greatest wrestler ever. He's better than Lou Thesz, Gorgeous George -- you name it."-The Hulkster on Nature Boy Ric Flair


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Peg, posted 03-05-2010 11:55 PM Peg has not yet responded

    
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 2750 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 85 of 127 (549352)
03-06-2010 6:57 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Peg
03-03-2010 11:30 PM


Re: actually...it's not that simple
Flyer75 writes:
So you've spent this whole time telling all of us that YOM can mean other periods of time other then a literal day, which I didn't disagree with you on, yet you now want to claim without any proof that with CERTAINTY it means millions of years????? When it CAN mean a literal day also?

Peg writes:

without any proof???

how long does it take for a diamond to form

how about coal?

How long does a landmass, covered in hot magna from an erupted volcano, take to re-vegetate?

How long does it take for the light from the sun to reach the earth?

could all this have really happened in 24hours? I think the evidence is fairly clear on that and therefore how could the Yom of Genesis be a 24 hour day??? It couldnt. So the logical interpretation of the account is that the Yom in this instance was a very long time, ages, eons, milleniums or simply... a very long Yom.

Peg, I really cannot believe you just stated this as evidence. We know from SCIENCE the above. The authors did not. They had no concept of how long coal takes to form.

Again, the only reason its an "age" now, is bc science has determined the age of the earth, which contradicts scripture. Do you really think 200+ years ago most Christians believed that Genesis states it was billions of years?

How much more clear can evening, morning, first day. Evening, morning second day?

Each time evening/morning is used in scripture, it refers to a 24 hour day. Everytime a number and day are used together it refers to a 24 hour day.

Also, olam or qedem are Hebrew words used to show long periods of time.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Peg, posted 03-03-2010 11:30 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Peg, posted 03-06-2010 5:57 PM hERICtic has responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 3163 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 86 of 127 (549392)
03-06-2010 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by hERICtic
03-06-2010 6:57 AM


Re: actually...it's not that simple
hERICtic writes:

Again, the only reason its an "age" now, is bc science has determined the age of the earth, which contradicts scripture.

no, science has got nothing to do with the ancient hebrew language.

Science doesnt even have anything to do with the improved understanding of ancient languages. And its not out of harmony with scripture because the same word, Yom, is used throughout the hebrew scriptures and it is used in a wide variety of ways to express different lengths of time.

even in genesis it doesnt mean 24 hours.... it actually means 12 hours because only the light portion is called a Yom/day.

hERICtic writes:

Do you really think 200+ years ago most Christians believed that Genesis states it was billions of years?

200+ years ago, the ancient hebrew language was much less understood then it is today. Modern archeology and the study of linguistics is what has shed light on the real meaning behind the language. There are still some aspects of ancient hebrew that are not fully understood and im sure in coming years they will understand even more.

hERICtic writes:

How much more clear can evening, morning, first day. Evening, morning second day?

Each time evening/morning is used in scripture, it refers to a 24 hour day. Everytime a number and day are used together it refers to a 24 hour day.


thats rubbish, excuse my directness here, but if you count the hours from sunset/evening to the following sunrise/morning its only 12 hours.

If you want it to mean 24 hours, it should be reading as 'from evening to evening' dont you think?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by hERICtic, posted 03-06-2010 6:57 AM hERICtic has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by hERICtic, posted 03-06-2010 6:19 PM Peg has responded

    
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 2750 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 87 of 127 (549395)
03-06-2010 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Peg
03-06-2010 5:57 PM


Re: actually...it's not that simple
hERICtic writes:
Again, the only reason its an "age" now, is bc science has determined the age of the earth, which contradicts scripture.

Peg writes:

no, science has got nothing to do with the ancient hebrew language.

Science doesnt even have anything to do with the improved understanding of ancient languages. And its not out of harmony with scripture because the same word, Yom, is used throughout the hebrew scriptures and it is used in a wide variety of ways to express different lengths of time.

even in genesis it doesnt mean 24 hours.... it actually means 12 hours because only the light portion is called a Yom/day.

It has everything to do with science. Until science determined the age of the earth, it was generally accepted that Genesis states 6-24 your days. Why? Bc thats what it stated. That is what is implied.

Yes, YOM is used throughout scripture and in EVERY instance evening/morning is used it refers to a 24 hour day. In EVERY instance a number precedes YOM, it refers to 24 hours.

There are words for long periods of time in Hebrew. Again, the ONLY reason you believe it to be long periods of time is due to what science has discovered. I have no doubt you would not carry this belief 200+ years ago. If tomorrow, scientists claimed they were wrong and the earth was created in 6 days, you would say without hesitation how amazing the Bible is! How Genesis clearly states this.

hERICtic writes:
Do you really think 200+ years ago most Christians believed that Genesis states it was billions of years?

Peg writes:

200+ years ago, the ancient hebrew language was much less understood then it is today. Modern archeology and the study of linguistics is what has shed light on the real meaning behind the language. There are still some aspects of ancient hebrew that are not fully understood and im sure in coming years they will understand even more.

You didnt answer the question.

hERICtic writes:
How much more clear can evening, morning, first day. Evening, morning second day?

Each time evening/morning is used in scripture, it refers to a 24 hour day. Everytime a number and day are used together it refers to a 24 hour day.

Peg writes:

thats rubbish, excuse my directness here, but if you count the hours from sunset/evening to the following sunrise/morning its only 12 hours.
If you want it to mean 24 hours, it should be reading as 'from evening to evening' dont you think?

You can be direct, no problem at all. But to get to the point, its not rubbish, bc you can easily do the homework on that one. EVERY time evening/morning is used, it refers to a 24 hour day. I didnt say it means 24 hours per se, but that it means a day, which consists of 24 hours.

Exodus also states the earth was created in 6 days.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Peg, posted 03-06-2010 5:57 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Peg, posted 03-06-2010 6:47 PM hERICtic has responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 3163 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 88 of 127 (549397)
03-06-2010 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by hERICtic
03-06-2010 6:19 PM


Re: actually...it's not that simple
hERICtic writes:

EVERY time evening/morning is used, it refers to a 24 hour day. I didnt say it means 24 hours per se, but that it means a day, which consists of 24 hours.

Genesis 1:5 "and the Light he called day"

please dont tell me that the 'light' here means 24 hours.

You just said 'in EVERY instance'

well here is an instance where the 'light' as opposed to the 'darkness' is called 'day'

Obviously it is not in every instance, is it.

Now i'm going to put the figures down for you to count.

6pm beginning of evening
7pm
8pm
9pm
10pm
11pm
12am
1am
2am
3am
4am
5am
6am Morning

Add them up and tell me how many hours there are in a day from evening to morning...and if you can come up with 24 from that, your a bloody genius!

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by hERICtic, posted 03-06-2010 6:19 PM hERICtic has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by hERICtic, posted 03-06-2010 7:23 PM Peg has responded

    
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 2750 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 89 of 127 (549400)
03-06-2010 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Peg
03-06-2010 6:47 PM


Re: actually...it's not that simple
Peg, you are missing the point.

In EVERY instance in scripture a number followed by YOM refers to a 24 hour period.

In EVERY instance in scripture, when evening and morning are used, it refers to a 24 hour period.

Jesus also stated a day has 12 hours. But obviously, Jesus knew it also included darkness before the next day. 24 hours.

Even Exodus states there was a six day creation.

There are words in Hebrew that denote long periods of time.

Even Jesus states its 6 days!

"But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female" (Mark 10:6).

You're claiming man was created at the end of creation, the sixth day, billions of years later! Your belief contradicts what Jesus is claiming. According to Genesis, man was created at the end of creation.

God rested on the seventh day. Do you believe this seventh day was also an epoch? Adam lived past this day, just how old was he then? Or do you think the seventh day is back to a 24 hour period?

Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Peg, posted 03-06-2010 6:47 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Peg, posted 03-06-2010 7:58 PM hERICtic has responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 3163 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 90 of 127 (549403)
03-06-2010 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by hERICtic
03-06-2010 7:23 PM


Re: actually...it's not that simple
hERICtic writes:

In EVERY instance in scripture a number followed by YOM refers to a 24 hour period.

In EVERY instance in scripture, when evening and morning are used, it refers to a 24 hour period.

ok, so show me a few scriptures where this is the case.

hERICtic writes:

Jesus also stated a day has 12 hours. But obviously, Jesus knew it also included darkness before the next day. 24 hours.

so Jesus stated that a 'day' has 12 hours, but YOU say that he actually MEANT 24 hours. Right.

hERICtic writes:

God rested on the seventh day. Do you believe this seventh day was also an epoch? Adam lived past this day, just how old was he then? Or do you think the seventh day is back to a 24 hour period?

we are still in Gods 7th day.

Hebrews 4:9-11
“There remains a sabbath resting for the people of God. For the man that has entered into God’s rest has also himself rested from his own works, just as God did from his own. Let us therefore do our utmost to enter into that rest.”

Even moses words show that the seventh day was still in progress when the wrote genesis
Genesis 2:3 “God proceeded to bless the seventh day and make it sacred, BECAUSE ON IT HE HAS BEEN RESTING from all his work that God has created for the purpose of making.”

So if the 7th day is still going, then we know that the 7th day is so far 6,036 years in length. When will the 7th day end? Maybe after armageddon? Mabye after the 1,000 years of 'judgement day' has ended and Christ hands over the kingdom back to God?

BTW, if you add up the numbers in my previous post, you should have counted 12 of them. Im sure my math is not that bad.

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by hERICtic, posted 03-06-2010 7:23 PM hERICtic has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by hERICtic, posted 03-07-2010 6:54 AM Peg has responded
 Message 92 by AdminPD, posted 03-07-2010 8:59 AM Peg has not yet responded

    
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