Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 88 (8987 total)
36 online now:
AZPaul3, PaulK (2 members, 34 visitors)
Newest Member: Robert Smith
Upcoming Birthdays: Theodoric
Post Volume: Total: 877,941 Year: 9,689/23,288 Month: 704/1,544 Week: 96/322 Day: 16/80 Hour: 5/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Is Jesus God?
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 3072 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 406 of 492 (555475)
04-13-2010 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 396 by jaywill
04-13-2010 8:20 AM


God is not a man
Jay,

Your claim is that Jesus is god. You've tried to use scripture refering to the "son of man". You've gone back to the OT to try to tie Jesus to being god.

You missed three very important scriptures though in reference to god being a man.

I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not a man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city. [Hosea 11:9]

God clearly states he is not a man.

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the Son of Man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? [Numbers 23:19]

Not only is god not a man, but he is not even the son of man!

1 Samuel 15:29 states:

“And also the Glory of Israel will not lie nor repent; for He is not a man(lo adam), that He should repent.’”

God has made it quite clear, he does not change. God also has made it quite clear, he is not a man.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by jaywill, posted 04-13-2010 8:20 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 407 by jaywill, posted 04-13-2010 10:26 PM hERICtic has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 496 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 407 of 492 (555482)
04-13-2010 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 406 by hERICtic
04-13-2010 8:43 PM


Re: God is not a man

Your claim is that Jesus is god.

The Bible claims that. The claim did not originate with man's word, but God's.

For example, the child born is Mighty God. And the Son given is Eternal Father in Isaiah 9:6. The most prominient recipient of these promises is Jesus Christ.


You've tried to use scripture refering to the "son of man". You've gone back to the OT to try to tie Jesus to being god.

He is the mingling of God and man. To mingle two or more things together mean to combine them in such a way that the component remain distinquishable in the combination.

In the Jesus Christ we discern God and we discern man. The word mingled is also biblical. In the typology of the meal offering, a type of Christ, the fine flour was to be mingled with oil. Some scholars have pointed out that this was a symbol of the incarnation of God in man to be an offering for sinners. The fine unleavened flour signifies His pure humanity. And the oil symbolizes the eternal Spirit of God.

Franze Delitzsch in his Old Testament Commentary draws attention to the usage of the words "mingled" and "anointed" in Leviticus 2:4. The double usage serves to increase the significance of the word "mingle".

"And when thou offerest an oblation of a meal-offering baken in the oven, it shall be unleavened cakes of fine flour mingled with oil, or unleavened wafers anointed with oil." (Lev. 2:4, A.S.V.)

As the latter verse were to be smeared with oil, we cannot understand bahlul [Heb. "mingled"] as signifying merely the pouring of oil upon the baked cakes, but must take it in the sense of mingled, mixed, i.e. kneaded with oil "

J.N. Darby elaborates on this symbolism.

Bahlal, It cannot, I think, be doubted that this is more than, and intended to be more than mahshagh "anointed." "Mixed," "mingled," is the sense of the word. In Psalm 92:10 it is not merely "anointed" as consecration, but his whole system is invigorated and strengthened by it; it formed his strength; hence it is "fresh oil" there."

The significance of the meal offering being a mingling was also expounded by Hesychius of Jerusalem (A.D. 410-450). Jo hn Calvin A.D ( 1509 -1564) expounded the symbolism too.

And Thomas Newberry, author of The English-Man's Bible also called The Newberry Bible wrote this about the Person of Christ as symbolized in Leviticus 2:4:

The 'fine flour' is emblematic of the pure, holy humanity of the Son of Man, the woman's seed, the virgin's Son ... "Mingled with oil ..." As every particle of the fine flour the Man Christ Jesus was pervaded by the Holy Spirit. He was in every respect TRULY human, but in no one respect was He MERELY human; it was, if we may so express it, a spiritualized humanity. He was full of the Holy Spirit even from His infancy (Matt. 1:20; Luke 1:35), and as He increased in years we read, "And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom; and the grace of God was upon him." (Luke 2:40)

In Jesus Christ God and man are mingled together. So we believers may say that Jesus is God.


You missed three very important scriptures though in reference to god being a man.

I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not a man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city. [Hosea 11:9]

By this time the incarnation had not taken place. So it is understandable for God to say that then He is not a man.
The Word had not yet become flesh (John 1:14).

To be fair, God did appear in human form in the Old Testament. But the 9 months He spent in the woman's womb and the subsequent birth as a child had not occured.

So God saying that He is not a man in Hosea is not a problem to the incarnation.


God clearly states he is not a man.

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the Son of Man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? [Numbers 23:19]

The same applies to this passage of Numbers 23:19.

Now on the throne of the universe is a Man who is God. He is God/Man Jesus Christ our Lord.

Even if you respect Him as the finest and highest Man who ever lived you have to admit that honesty must be one of His characteristics. There was no lying in His mouth.

So we have to examine what this very honest Person said about Himself. And He said that He was God, ie. (Matt. 23:37). God is now a truth speaking Man who says that He is the way and the truth and the life. And no one comes to the Father except through Him - (John 14:6)


Not only is god not a man, but he is not even the son of man!

Isaiah 9:6 has two tracks in its prophecy.

1.) the born child is the Mighty God.
2.) The son given is the Eternal Father.

Jesus Christ is the best recipient of this prophecy. So we believe that Jesus the Son of God, the Son of Man is Jehovah the Mighty God (Jeremiah 32:18; Psalm 50:1 ) to be born into humanity to be our Lord and Savior.


1 Samuel 15:29 states:

“And also the Glory of Israel will not lie nor repent; for He is not a man(lo adam), that He should repent.’”

By that time before the incarnation, this was true. There is no contradiction.

"And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us" (John 1:14)

This occured long after the lifetime of the prophet Samuel.


God has made it quite clear, he does not change. God also has made it quite clear, he is not a man.

You are ignoring Isaiah 9:6.

If a child is to be called Mighty God it must be that He is that which He is called. If a given Son is to be called Everlasting Father it must be because He is that One.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by hERICtic, posted 04-13-2010 8:43 PM hERICtic has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-14-2010 2:27 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 408 of 492 (555510)
04-14-2010 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 407 by jaywill
04-13-2010 10:26 PM


Re: God is not a man
heritic writes:
You missed three very important scriptures though in reference to god being a man.
I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not a man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city. [Hosea 11:9]

jaywill writes:

By this time the incarnation had not taken place. So it is understandable for God to say that then He is not a man.
The Word had not yet become flesh (John 1:14).

To be fair, God did appear in human form in the Old Testament. But the 9 months He spent in the woman's womb and the subsequent birth as a child had not occured.

So God saying that He is not a man in Hosea is not a problem to the incarnation.

Until this last post to you by heritic I thought I was dealing with someone who understood simple Biblical teachings and concepts, I was wrong, now I see what is going on. Ill let your capable hands take it with him from here, if you so choose.

That is if they let us keep it open and peg offers more responses worthy of something that has not been covered

Ill try to start on the other thread tommorrow. hope you guys are still interested in it

EAM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by jaywill, posted 04-13-2010 10:26 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 409 of 492 (555511)
04-14-2010 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 404 by hERICtic
04-13-2010 5:39 PM


Re: Jesus - God Processed to be Eaten
Peg and I have had some indepth debates, yet neither of us ever insulted the other. No matter how frustrating.

If you wish to continue, lose the child like behavior. Act like an adult. This is suppose to be a friendly debate, perhaps heated, but it does not have to fall apart bc you cannot stop with the insults.

Of course you are correct here, I apologize for the insults, just get carried away. Ill let the Jayman take it from here. good luck with your search. if there is anything you would like me to specifically address feel free to present it again and Ill explain again, from my perspective

EAM

Edited by EMA, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 404 by hERICtic, posted 04-13-2010 5:39 PM hERICtic has not yet responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3485 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 410 of 492 (555514)
04-14-2010 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 394 by jaywill
04-13-2010 6:51 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
jaywill writes:

Why don't the "Translators" of the Jehovah's Witnesses "New World Translation" identify themselves and their credentials ? I can never see who the "translators" are of this English version of the Bible.

why do they need to? And what has scholarship got to do with spirituality? Was jesus or the apostles scholars? No they were not. They did not attend the rabbinic schools and yet they were blessed with Gods spirit and could teach the word of God without needing to go to worldly schools. So its Gods spirit that qualified them to teach just as it is Gods spirit which qualifies the jw writing committee to produce the publications they produce.

And think about this, even some of the books of the bible do not contain the authors name, so why should the writing committee put their names to the works they produce? If they wanted accolades, they might put their names to them, but thats not their motive.

What would you rather, learn about God from someone who paid for their degree, or from someone who God gave his spirit to?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by jaywill, posted 04-13-2010 6:51 AM jaywill has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 411 by anglagard, posted 04-14-2010 3:14 AM Peg has not yet responded
 Message 413 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-14-2010 9:02 AM Peg has responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2227
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 411 of 492 (555516)
04-14-2010 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 410 by Peg
04-14-2010 2:57 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
Peg writes:

What would you rather, learn about God from someone who paid for their degree, or from someone who God gave his spirit to?

That would, of course, depend upon who is the judge of "someone who God gave his spirit to."

I f you are the final judge of everyone's interpretation according to your own dogma, are you not the final judge yourself?

Where there is no room for doubt, there is no room for learning.


The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
— Salman Rushdie

This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by Peg, posted 04-14-2010 2:57 AM Peg has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 412 by hERICtic, posted 04-14-2010 5:37 AM anglagard has acknowledged this reply

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 3072 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 412 of 492 (555543)
04-14-2010 5:37 AM
Reply to: Message 411 by anglagard
04-14-2010 3:14 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
Your claim is that Jesus is god.

Jay writes:

The Bible claims that. The claim did not originate with man's word, but God's.

You're being silly. You claim this. From your interpretation of scripture. The Bible never states Jesus is god.

Jay writes:

For example, the child born is Mighty God. And the Son given is Eternal Father in Isaiah 9:6. The most prominient recipient of these promises is Jesus Christ.

Poor example. Nothing in Isa states Jesus is god. In fact, I have already shown you its not about Jesus. It clearly states this if you read chapter 10. Even more so, simple logic. Jesus is NEVER called the "Father". He is the son.
============================================

You've tried to use scripture refering to the "son of man". You've gone back to the OT to try to tie Jesus to being god.

Jay writes:

He is the mingling of God and man. To mingle two or more things together mean to combine them in such a way that the component remain distinquishable in the combination.

Bible never states this.

Jay writes:

In Jesus Christ God and man are mingled together. So we believers may say that Jesus is God.

I deleted to save time most of your example of mingling with oil and flour. It really is an awful example. You seem to provide quite a bit of examples from other authors...which lack any evidence from scripture.

Oil and flour are two seperate items combined. Your belief is that Jesus IS god. You have 100% god in heaven, with 100% god walking the earth, calling them the same.

Do not use symbolism. Use evidence. Your lack of evidence is why you keep resorting to silly comparisons. Symbols can have many interpretations. Stick with the facts.

==============================================

You missed three very important scriptures though in reference to god being a man.
I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not a man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city. [Hosea 11:9]

Jay writes:

By this time the incarnation had not taken place. So it is understandable for God to say that then He is not a man.
The Word had not yet become flesh (John 1:14).

Think for a moment. God does not change. Nor does god lie. Correct? So now you're stating god tells his chose people he is not a man....then appears as one later?

Jay writes:

To be fair, God did appear in human form in the Old Testament. But the 9 months He spent in the woman's womb and the subsequent birth as a child had not occured.

Please provide scripture. For if you are correct, you have a serious problem. God flat out lied.

Jay writes:

So God saying that He is not a man in Hosea is not a problem to the incarnation.

Sure it is. God does not change. To state god tells his chosen people that that he is not a man is a huge problem if he decided later on that he would become one. God knows the future, does he not?

==============================================God clearly states he is not a man.
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the Son of Man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? [Numbers 23:19]

Jay writes:

So we have to examine what this very honest Person said about Himself. And He said that He was God, ie. (Matt. 23:37). God is now a truth speaking Man who says that He is the way and the truth and the life. And no one comes to the Father except through Him - (John 14:6)

Jay, you're all over the place. We are discussing the OT scrpiture, not the NT. You're ignoring what the OT states by reverting back to the NT.

God is NOT a man. Three different places this is stated. He also states he is NOT the son of man.
=============================================

Jay writes:

Isaiah 9:6 has two tracks in its prophecy.

1.) the born child is the Mighty God.
2.) The son given is the Eternal Father.

Jesus Christ is the best recipient of this prophecy. So we believe that Jesus the Son of God, the Son of Man is Jehovah the Mighty God (Jeremiah 32:18; Psalm 50:1 ) to be born into humanity to be our Lord and Savior.

You're ignoring my previous post. Its about Hezekiah. Chapter 10 explains chapter 9. Did you even bother to read them? I also gave a list of names in the Bible that one could easily state are also god...in which they are not. I also pointed out Jesus is not the father, he makes the crystal clear. So now you're ignoring the NT scripture. Jesus is the son. He has a father. He states god is the father.
===========================================

1 Samuel 15:29 states:
“And also the Glory of Israel will not lie nor repent; for He is not a man(lo adam), that He should repent.’”

Jay writes:

By that time before the incarnation, this was true. There is no contradiction.

Nope. God does not change. You're making god out to be a liar. You're suggesting an all knowing god, who knows the future, tells his chose people he is not a man, bc man lies...and then later on becomes a man.
==============================================

Jay writes:

"And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us" (John 1:14)

This occured long after the lifetime of the prophet Samuel.

Yes it did. But time is immaterial to god. He states he is not a man, bc man lies. Nor is he the son of man. Is your god a liar?

Jay writes:

You are ignoring Isaiah 9:6.

If a child is to be called Mighty God it must be that He is that which He is called. If a given Son is to be called Everlasting Father it must be because He is that One.

I have ignored nothing. I went into explicit detail at how its not about Jesus. In fact, I pointed out if you read chapter 10, which refers back to chapter 9, it gives you the time frame of the child-the time of the Assyrians.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by anglagard, posted 04-14-2010 3:14 AM anglagard has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 414 by jaywill, posted 04-14-2010 9:43 AM hERICtic has responded
 Message 415 by jaywill, posted 04-14-2010 12:18 PM hERICtic has responded
 Message 418 by jaywill, posted 04-14-2010 5:25 PM hERICtic has not yet responded

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 413 of 492 (555574)
04-14-2010 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 410 by Peg
04-14-2010 2:57 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
So its Gods spirit that qualified them to teach just as it is Gods spirit which qualifies the jw writing committee to produce the publications they produce.

In the scriptures there is a biblical pattern for those that had the direct Spirit of God, in the case of law givers. IOWs they knew that Moses got the commandments from God due to the miracles that accompanied him.

Again, the Apostle Paul said, "I did not come to you in word only but in power and demonstration of the Holy Spirit"

1 Thes 1: 5"For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, in the Holy Spirit, and with much assurance.

Again he said, "the signs of an Apostle were wrought amoung you"

2 Cor 2:12 "When I was with you, I certainly gave you proof that I am an apostle. For I patiently did many signs and wonders and miracles among you."

There is a Biblical pattern that law givers from God are carried along so that those that hear alleged SPOKSMEN from God, can confirm this by the signs that follow them.

The Master Jesus said, "If you do not believe me for the words that I speak, believe me for the works that I do because they testify of me"

If JW leaders can despense new truth outside the written established word, are you claiming that they have such ablities to confirm these new truths?

Or are you claiming that they like the Pope, when they speak on spiritual matters are infallible in thier interpretations. Infallability would of course also be a Spiritual (Miraculous) gift

The Biblical pattern seems to be that law givers were QUALIFIED by the signs that followed them. How would you say your followers are guided by the Spirit?

What excally do they give us, if they do that is different from the written established word?

More importantly, is there any way as in the scriptures we could CONFIRM their alleged DIRECT INSPIRATION from God in Watch Tower publications, the way the people confirmed the Apostles new doctrine, by the accompanment of signs and miracles.

IOWs why would we believe their revelations any more than say, the Mormons claims to new teaching?

Just a thought

EAM

Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

Edited by EMA, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by Peg, posted 04-14-2010 2:57 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 419 by Peg, posted 04-14-2010 9:13 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 496 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 414 of 492 (555582)
04-14-2010 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 412 by hERICtic
04-14-2010 5:37 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
Your claim is that Jesus is god.

Jesus claims that He is the First and the Last.

"And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead; and He placed His right hand on me saying, Do not fear; I am the First and the Last and the living One; and I became dead, and behold, I am living forever and ever ..." (Rev. 1:17)

Compare this to what Jehovah God speaks in the Old Testament:

"Thus says Jehovah the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts, I am the First and I am the Last, and apart from Me there is no God." (Isa 44:6)

You are in unbelief. I am in belief.


Jay writes:
The Bible claims that. The claim did not originate with man's word, but God's.

You're being silly. You claim this. From your interpretation of scripture. The Bible never states Jesus is god.

"Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!

Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed." (John 20:28,29)

I am in belief. You are in unbelief. It is blessed to be in belief. And I also say of Jesus, "My Lord, and my God."

That is all the time I have right now. I may get to your other comments latter today.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 412 by hERICtic, posted 04-14-2010 5:37 AM hERICtic has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 420 by hERICtic, posted 04-14-2010 9:34 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 496 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 415 of 492 (555596)
04-14-2010 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 412 by hERICtic
04-14-2010 5:37 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
You're ignoring my previous post. Its about Hezekiah. Chapter 10 explains chapter 9. Did you even bother to read them? I also gave a list of names in the Bible that one could easily state are also god...in which they are not. I also pointed out Jesus is not the father, he makes the crystal clear. So now you're ignoring the NT scripture. Jesus is the son. He has a father. He states god is the father.

I understand the complaint of some that passages seemed more aimed at Cyrus, or Hezekiah, or Solomon, or David, or Zechariah, etc should not be applied to Jesus Christ.

Critics with this reasoning cry "Dual Meaning" as a protest. However, ALL of the promises of God find their ultimate Yes and Amen in Jesus Christ.

So Paul wrote: "For as many promises of God as there are, in Him [Christ] is the Yes; therefore also through Him is the Amen to God, ..." (2 Cor. 1:20)

All of the positive promises of God find their ultimate fulfillment in the Son.

This is why Jesus said that He was the greater temple, and the greater Jonah, and the greater Solomon.

" ... behold something more than Jonah is here." (Matt. 12:41

" ... behold, something more than Solomon is here." (Matt. 12:42)

"But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here." (Matt. 12:6)

Based on this priniciple, as good as Hezekiah may have been, Jesus is the greater Hezekiah. As great as Solomon may have been, Jesus is the greater Solomon. All that came before Jesus may have been more or less good. But none were perfect as the Son of God.

So while I do acknowledge that some prophecies had an immedient referent that was prior to Jesus Christ, they were the imperfect referent. He is the ultimate AMEN to the promises of God.

Look at Hezekiah for example. When it was time for him to die, he wept and requested a little longer to live. God was merciful and granted him 15 more years.

Immediately after we have the record of his boasting to the Babylonians about his treasures which led to the downfall of Hezekiah's kingdom. His pride was exposed and became the undoing of his people.

What was the good king's response ? It is telling. He said in essence "Well, as long as there is peace in my time, it is OK".

So much for the Wondeful Counselor. He only cared about his own reputation in the end. He fell short. Jesus was the only Man absolute for the will of the Father. And Jesus completed that which Hezekiah lacked.

You have to grasp this truth in the Bible, that ALL who went before the Son of God, though many times good, nonetheless fell short. None could qualify to be the Savior of mankind.

Jesus is therefore the REAL Hezekiah who cared nothing for Himself in the end. He was totally absolute for the will of His Father.

Probably, Hezekiah just should have died when God told him it was time to go. God probably knew that the wise king could not take any more temptation. His imperfection was thus exposed.

But Jesus Christ, God incarnate is the greater Solomon, the greater David, the greater Hezekiah and the reality of all the positive promises of God in the OT.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 412 by hERICtic, posted 04-14-2010 5:37 AM hERICtic has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 416 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-14-2010 2:58 PM jaywill has responded
 Message 421 by hERICtic, posted 04-14-2010 10:02 PM jaywill has responded

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 416 of 492 (555621)
04-14-2010 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 415 by jaywill
04-14-2010 12:18 PM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
I understand the complaint of some that passages seemed more aimed at Cyrus, or Hezekiah, or Solomon, or David, or Zechariah, etc should not be applied to Jesus Christ.

Critics with this reasoning cry "Dual Meaning" as a protest. However, ALL of the promises of God find their ultimate Yes and Amen in Jesus Christ.

So Paul wrote: "For as many promnises of God as there are, in Him [Christ] is the Yes; therefore also through Him is the Amen to God, ..." (2 Cor. 1:20)

All of the positive promises of God find their ultimate fulfillment in the Son.

This is why Jesus said that He was the greater temple, and the greater Jonah, and the greater Solomon.

" ... behold something more than Jonah is here." (Matt. 12:41

" ... behold, something more than Solomon is here." (Matt. 12:42)

"But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here." (Matt. 12:6)

Based on this priniciple, as good as Hezekiah may have been, Jesus is the greater Hezekiah. As great as Solomon may have been, Jesus is the greater Solomon. All that came before Jesus may have been more or less good. But none were perfect as the Son of God.

So while I do acknowledge that some prophecies had an immedient referent that was prior to Jesus Christ, they were the imperfect referent. He is the ultimate AMEN to the promises of God.

Look at Hezekiah for example. When it was time for him to die, he wept and requested a little longer to live. God was merciful and granted him 15 more years.

Immediately after we have the record of his boasting to the Babylonians about his treasures which led to the downfall of Hezekiah's kingdom. His pride was exposed and became the undoing of his people.

What was the good king's response ? It is telling. He said in essence "Well, as long as there is peace in my time, it is OK".

So much for the Wondeful Counselor. He only cared about his own reputation in the end. He fell short. Jesus was the only Man absolute for the will of the Father. And Jesus completed that which Hezekiah lacked.

You have to grasp this truth in the Bible, that ALL who went before the Son of God, though many times good, nonetheless fell short. None could qualify to be the Savior of mankind.

Jesus is therefore the REAL Hezekiah who cared nothing for Himself in the end. He was totally absolute for the will of His Father.

Probably, Hezekiah just should have died when God told him it was time to go. God probably knew that the wise king could not take any more temptation. His imperfection was thus exposed.

But Jesus Christ, God incarnate is the greater Solomon, the greater David, the greater Hezekiah and the reality of all the positive promises of God in the OT.

Listening to ya. its like going to college and getting free Bible lessons. Outstanding!!!!

EAM

Edited by EMA, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by jaywill, posted 04-14-2010 12:18 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 417 by jaywill, posted 04-14-2010 4:58 PM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 496 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 417 of 492 (555636)
04-14-2010 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 416 by Dawn Bertot
04-14-2010 2:58 PM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
Thankyou brother.

I do not like to neglect to give credit where it is due. My main teacher is brother Witness Lee. And I am greatly enfluenced by Lee's footnotes and study notes of the Recovery Version Bible.

www.recoveryversion.org

They are outstanding for study and I recommend them highly. And when you get his footnotes you are likewise often getting the cream of the ministry of others who have gone before him. He was very good at consolidating some of the best understandings of Bible teachers and incorporating their labors as study notes in this Recovery Version Bible.

We thank the Lord for His light in these last days,

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 416 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-14-2010 2:58 PM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 496 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 418 of 492 (555638)
04-14-2010 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 412 by hERICtic
04-14-2010 5:37 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
I also gave a list of names in the Bible that one could easily state are also god...

Who else would you submit and why ?


in which they are not. I also pointed out Jesus is not the father, he makes the crystal clear. So now you're ignoring the NT scripture. Jesus is the son. He has a father. He states god is the father.

It is true that the Bible makes it crystal clear the there is distinction between the Father and the Son. For afterall, we see the Father sending the Son. We see the Son petitioning the Father, obeying the Father, doing the Father's work and will, speaking the Father's words, etc.

But we also notice that when the Son comes the Father is not left but seems to come with the Son. We see the Father and the Son mutually indwelling one another. And we see the Son Who is given being called the Eternal Father in Isaiah 9:6.

Jesus in John 14 confirms this. So this is quite mysterious that both are made "crystal clear".

We are not asked to be able to explain God. We are commanded to believe in God.

We are not asked to figure out the Holy Spirit. We are charged to Receive the Holy Spirit.

Christ is called "the mystery of God" in Colossians2:2 - "That their hearts may be comforted, they being knit together in love and unto all the riches of the full assurance of understanding, unto the full knowledge of the mystery of God, Christ."

This passage is full if subjective experience. Yet Christ is still the mystery of God. This passage speaks of comfort, knitting together in love, assurance, understanding and all kinds of subjective enjoyment. Yet that which is enjoyed is still "the mystery of God, Christ".

I cannot explain to you the inner triune nature of God. This is too difficult for me to explain. And human pride often bulks because man in general does not want ANYTHING to remain a mystery.

But Christ being a mystery does not mean that Christ cannot be experienced and enjoyed. The child and the Son is given the name Wonderful in Isaiah 9:6. Anything wonderful is not easy to explain.

Though the child and the Son is Wonderful, - full of wonder, He is still "unto us" . Our inability to explain Him does not interfere with our ability to enjoy and experience Him. Our part is to believe and to receive.

So I confess I cannot explain how Father and Son are distinct yet they are one another too. This is too Wonderful for me to explain. But I urge you not to let that bother you in the enjoyment of this God.

Now if the Son is called Prince of Peace, He must be the Prince of Peace. If He is called the Wonderful Counselor, He must be the Wonderful Counselor. And if He is called the Mighty God it makes not sense to say that He is called that, but He is NOT that.

And if the Son is called Eternal Father, it makes no sense to say He is called that but He is not that.

So I agree with you that there are TWO - Father and Son. But I must be enlarged in scope and widened in appreciation of ALL that the Bible says. And it ALSO says that the Son is the Eternal Father.

It is not commanded that I be able to explain this mystery. It is commanded that I believe the word of God. So say "Amen, the Son is also the Eternal Father just as He is called."

Can you believe this and also embrace those passages which show Son praying to Father, sent by Father, ascending to the Father, doing the Father's will, petitioning the Father, etc?

I have learned to believe both aspects. He is "Wonderful".

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 412 by hERICtic, posted 04-14-2010 5:37 AM hERICtic has not yet responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3485 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 419 of 492 (555674)
04-14-2010 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 413 by Dawn Bertot
04-14-2010 9:02 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
EMA writes:

If JW leaders can despense new truth outside the written established word, are you claiming that they have such ablities to confirm these new truths?

JW's dont do that. There are no new truths outside the bible. The bible has been provided by God and it contains all the truth we need. All our teachings come from this source...we dont invent new ones. No one should do that.
Rom. 15:4 "For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope.”

EMA writes:

There is a Biblical pattern that law givers from God are carried along so that those that hear alleged SPOKSMEN from God, can confirm this by the signs that follow them.

The only sign a christian needs is that of faith, hope and love. Paul explained why this would be the case when he explained that the holy spirit would reveal understanding and no more signs would be needed. The signs of the past were to establish christianity, once it was establishded, no more signs would be needed:

"1Cor13:8-13 "8 Love never fails. But whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; 10 but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with....12 For at present we see in hazy outline...but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately.."

EMA writes:

Or are you claiming that they like the Pope, when they speak on spiritual matters are infallible in thier interpretations. Infallability would of course also be a Spiritual (Miraculous) gift

No they are not infallible...no human is.
jw's have ammended their teachings when a clearer understanding became available on a particular subject. This is what relying on holy spirit is about...its allows our teachings to improve when something becomes clearer. Jw's used to celebrate christmas too you know. It was only due to a clearer understanding of where christmas originated from that they stopped celebrating it.

The same with smoking cigarettes. It was a clearer undestanding of the mosaic laws about physical and spiritual cleaness that made them realise that smoking was not acceptable to God.

Also the Name Jehovah showed them that there was a clear difference between Jehovah and Jesus, thus they knew the trinity doctrine was not true and this made a lot of other things clearer with regard to the kingdom of God.

The study of the original hebrew words also revealed to them teachings such as the immortal soul, hellfire & pergatory were not correct....jw's thought they were all going to heaven too you know. But they were willing to change that view when their understanding increased.

EMA writes:

The Biblical pattern seems to be that law givers were QUALIFIED by the signs that followed them. How would you say your followers are guided by the Spirit?

As i've already shown Pauls words about signs/gifts being done away with, we should look at what would would be required of christians in order for them to be blessed with knowledge.

LOVE - John 13:34, 35 “I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.”

UNITY - 1 Cor. 1:10, 13 “Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought. Does the Christ exist divided?”

FAITH - Heb. 11:6 “Without faith it is impossible to please him well, for he that approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him.”

Christians really do have to put on the 'mind of Christ' if they want to recieve holy spirit. And with holy spirit, true understanding is possible because it comes from God.

EMA writes:

More importantly, is there any way as in the scriptures we could CONFIRM their alleged DIRECT INSPIRATION from God in Watch Tower publications, the way the people confirmed the Apostles new doctrine, by the accompanment of signs and miracles.

IOWs why would we believe their revelations any more than say, the Mormons claims to new teaching?

thats a fair enough question. They would certainly need to prove themselves before their word should be taken seriously, I agree.

Would you agree that the Bible is the right standard against which to measure one’s religion?

If you do then you would be able to make an informed decision yourself about jw's because you can clearly see how they base all of their beliefs, their standards for conduct, faith and organizational procedures on the Bible. I can't prove that to you over the internet but you could easily go and find out for yourself by attending a meeting and having a bible study which is free btw.

Thats the only way i became convinced that they taught the truth.

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 413 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-14-2010 9:02 AM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 423 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-15-2010 1:45 AM Peg has responded

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 3072 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 420 of 492 (555678)
04-14-2010 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 414 by jaywill
04-14-2010 9:43 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
Your claim is that Jesus is god.

Jay writes:

Jesus claims that He is the First and the Last.

"And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead; and He placed His right hand on me saying, Do not fear; I am the First and the Last and the living One; and I became dead, and behold, I am living forever and ever ..." (Rev. 1:17)

Compare this to what Jehovah God speaks in the Old Testament:

"Thus says Jehovah the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts, I am the First and I am the Last, and apart from Me there is no God." (Isa 44:6)

Except for one small problem. You're doing what I said you were-ignoring the context as well as the surrounding verses. It clearly states the first and the last, was dead. Really? God died? Obviously, Jesus is refering to something else. Remember, your claim is that the First and Last is the Father, god. Yet the verse you gave states the first and last, died.

Again, you ignore the previous scriputures and focus on one or two verses.

Rev 1: 5and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loveth us, and loosed us from our sins by his blood;

So it already explains what the "first" is. Jesus was the first to be brought back to life by god and not die again. He is also the last. No one else will ever accomplish this.

Jay writes:

You are in unbelief. I am in belief.

No, I just follow context. You've been forcefed for so long that Jesus is god, you accept anything thrown your way. How many times now have I corrected you using the surrounding verses?

Jay writes:

"Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!

Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed." (John 20:28,29)

I am in belief. You are in unbelief. It is blessed to be in belief. And I also say of Jesus, "My Lord, and my God."

Another great example of you ignoring context. A story does not revolve around one or two lines. Read back to chapter 14:

5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

What does Jesus say to Thomas and the others. God is in him. If you see Jesus, you see the Father.

CONTEXT. CONTEXT. CONTEXT.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by jaywill, posted 04-14-2010 9:43 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2020