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Author Topic:   Is Jesus God?
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 3072 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 421 of 492 (555683)
04-14-2010 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 415 by jaywill
04-14-2010 12:18 PM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
You're ignoring my previous post. Its about Hezekiah. Chapter 10 explains chapter 9. Did you even bother to read them? I also gave a list of names in the Bible that one could easily state are also god...in which they are not. I also pointed out Jesus is not the father, he makes the crystal clear. So now you're ignoring the NT scripture. Jesus is the son. He has a father. He states god is the father.

Jay writes:

I understand the complaint of some that passages seemed more aimed at Cyrus, or Hezekiah, or Solomon, or David, or Zechariah, etc should not be applied to Jesus Christ.

The reason is that it states it! Chapter 10 mirrors chapter 9 and gives the time frame!

Jay writes:

Based on this priniciple, as good as Hezekiah may have been, Jesus is the greater Hezekiah. As great as Solomon may have been, Jesus is the greater Solomon. All that came before Jesus may have been more or less good. But none were perfect as the Son of God.

Wow. You are completely ignoring the context. Chapter 10 tells you the time frame. Not only that, the Tanach clearly states its a past event. Not a future one. Basically, you're ignoring what the scripture actually states and putting your symbolic spin on it to make it say what you want.

Its a past event. How do we know? Bc it states it is! I already gave you how its written in the Tanach. I showed you that Chapter 10 mirrors chapter nine, giving a time frame.

All you are doing is focusing on the names given, to show it could only refer to Jesus. Yet I have given you a small list of many, that show the same implication.

Jay writes:

Who else would you submit and why ?

Why what? Are any of these people god?

Moses is called god.
Gabriel also means "Strong God".
Ezekiel means "Strong God".
Elzaphan means "God is Protector"
Eliakim means "God raises".
Elisha means "God is Salvation".
HAZAEL means "God sees"

You would answer no. Yet their names could easily be used to show they are god. Yet you dismiss them all, except Isa 9, bc you want it to be about Jesus.

Jay writes:

Jesus in John 14 confirms this. So this is quite mysterious that both are made "crystal clear".

We are not asked to be able to explain God. We are commanded to believe in God.

You keep dancing around every issue I bring up. John 14 states nothing about Jesus being equal to god. In fact, its another example of the opposite. Jesus states he is going TO the father. Jesus says hes going to bring glory to the father. Jesus will ASK the father. Jesus even states the father is great then himself and that the father commands him!

Jay, you are so wrapped up in believing that Jesus must be god, that you never seem to actually read what is being stated. This is a perfect example. You brought up John 14 to show Jesus is god, yet it states the opposite.

You are doing more preaching than actually giving any evidence to support your claims.

You keep bringing up Isa 9 over and over, yet you refuse to actually read what it states. You take a few verses, ignore the context and surounding scripture and stay with your erroneous conclusion.

Isa 7 isnt even about Jesus. Start reading from Isa 7 to chapter 10. Slowly. Focus on the time frames given. Its quite clear.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by jaywill, posted 04-14-2010 12:18 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 422 by jaywill, posted 04-14-2010 11:48 PM hERICtic has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 496 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 422 of 492 (555687)
04-14-2010 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 421 by hERICtic
04-14-2010 10:02 PM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
You're ignoring my previous post. Its about Hezekiah. Chapter 10 explains chapter 9. Did you even bother to read them? I also gave a list of names in the Bible that one could easily state are also god...in which they are not.

I read and quite enjoyed Isaiah 10. But it doesn't matter to Jesus being the Mighty God born as a child. The entire Bible is the larger and more important context.

In the larger context of the whole Bible, Hezekiah came short of fulfilling this prophecy and the more perfect recipient is Christ. He is the greater Hezekiah.


The reason is that it states it! Chapter 10 mirrors chapter 9 and gives the time frame!

The larger context is all of human history. And Christ is that child born who is the Jehovah the Mighty God. And He is that Son given Who is the Eternal Father.

After His resurrection Jesus went through many Scriptures with the disciples to show that they were talking about Him.

"And He said to them, O foolish and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and enter into His glory?

And beginning from Moses and from all the prophets, He explained to them clearly in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. " (Luke 24:25-27)

I have no doubt you would begin from Moses and all the prophets and argue that they were not talking about Jesus Christ at all. For this is what you are doing with Isaiah 9:6.

You would probably see nothing of His death being fortold. You would probably see nothing of His resurrection being foretold. But Jesus illuminated wisdom on all the prophets ... "from all the prophets" demonstrating that He was being refered to.

I can hear you arguing "No. No. That is about Hezekiah. That is about Solomon. No that is only about Joseph. Look at the context." etc. etc.

But Jesus opened their minds to see that He is the AMEN to all the promises of God in the OT:

"And He said to them, These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all the things written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and Psalms concerning Me must be fulfilled.

Then He opened their mind to understand the Scriptures; And He said to them, Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise up from the dead on the third day; And that repentence for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem" (Luke 24:44-47)

Though, we do not have a record of all the passages that Jesus expounded "beginning from Moses and from all the prophets" and from the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms, I would bet that Isaiah 9:6 was one of the prophecies He spoke of.


Wow. You are completely ignoring the context. Chapter 10 tells you the time frame. Not only that, the Tanach clearly states its a past event. Not a future one. Basically, you're ignoring what the scripture actually states and putting your symbolic spin on it to make it say what you want.

You are ignoring the larger context of the whole divine revelation of the Bible.

Hezekiah was simply not that pleasing to God. Where he fell short Jesus the Son of God did not.

The same could be said of Moses, Aaron, David, and Solomon and every other Old Testament figure. The beloved Son is the one who finally the Father had His full delight.

A greater one then Hezekiah is here in Jesus Christ.


Its a past event. How do we know? Bc it states it is! I already gave you how its written in the Tanach. I showed you that Chapter 10 mirrors chapter nine, giving a time frame.

All you are doing is focusing on the names given, to show it could only refer to Jesus. Yet I have given you a small list of many, that show the same implication.

I found the reasoning weak.

None of those figures did the Holy Spirit reserve 27 books on.
Of the 66 books of the Bible 27 are dedicated to one Person, the Son of God. It is more than a matter of a name. It is that He acted in the reality of that name.

David may have been called a "darling". But David, God's darling, also had a man murdered so that David could cover up his adultery with the man's wife and steal the man's wife.

Now David was very good. But a greater than David is here in Jesus Christ. And the same is true with Hezekiah.

These people were figures pointing the way to the Righteous One, the Son of God. The Old Testament is filled with types, shadows, and figures of Christ. And it is also filled with prophecies whose ultimate reference is Christ.

You simply ignore that Jesus is unique in the whole Bible. He is in a class all His own.


Moses is called god.

God did not allow Moses to enter into the Promised Land because of his disobedience.

Christ is a greater one than Moses. Moses points the way to Christ.


Gabriel also means "Strong God".

Gabriel is an angel. The mention of Gabriel is sparse in the Bible.
(One place does refer to "the man Gabriel"). Gabriel announces something concerning the birth of the Son of God.

He is not nearly as prominent a figure in Scripture as Jesus Christ.


Ezekiel means "Strong God".

Ezekiel has a book named after him. And he was shown many things. But in spite of such a good name, Ezekiel does not occupy as prominent place in the Scriptures as Jesus.

There is no testament in whole dedicated to the prophet Ezekiel.


Elzaphan means "God is Protector"
Eliakim means "God raises".
Elisha means "God is Salvation".

Elisha is a type of Christ. Other Old Testament figure expressed some aspect which would be more clearly manifested in the Son of God. Elisha was definitely a pre-figure of the Son of God.

I would have to review the other two persons.


HAZAEL means "God sees"

I am not sure what it is you think I am not aware of. Of course I know that the Hebrew names of many OT figures were splendid and exalted God.

You have to pay more attention to which ones really LIVED UP to all that their names said.


You would answer no. Yet their names could easily be used to show they are god. Yet you dismiss them all, except Isa 9, bc you want it to be about Jesus.

The mention of the names of those people are not as clearly and definitely prophetic as Isaiah 9:6.

You keep dancing around every issue I bring up. John 14 states nothing about Jesus being equal to god.

I disagree from the first verse in the chapter:

"Do not let your heart be troubled; believe into God, believe also into Me." (John 14:1)

Jesus puts Himself on par with God in the first verse. As we are to believe into God we are also to believe into Him.


In fact, its another example of the opposite. Jesus states he is going TO the father.

Yes, but He and the Father as the Divine "WE" will come to make an abode with the lover of Jesus.

This is incredible. In in the context of the whole chapter the coming of the Holy Spirit is the coming of the Divine WE of verse 23.

Those with whom the Father and the Son have made an abode, through the Holy Spirit, can make absolutely no discernable difference between Them. So the term tri-une has become useful.

God is Three - One. When the Holy Spirit came to us believers, the Father and the Son came in His coming. We sense no separation. God became real to me the moment I called upon the name of Jesus as my Lord.


Jesus says hes going to bring glory to the father. Jesus will ASK the father. Jesus even states the father is great then himself and that the father commands him!

In the book of Zechariah, God sends God. And the Lord of hosts is both the Sender and the one sent.

The Old Testament then hints of this mysterious nature of God. And we see the same thing in the interchangeable use of the title The Angel of Jehovah and Jehovah in a number of places in the Old Testament.


Jay, you are so wrapped up in believing that Jesus must be god,

I should hope so. It is blessed to be so wrapped.

"Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord AND MY GOD!

Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed." (John 20:28,29 my emphasis)


that you never seem to actually read what is being stated. This is a perfect example. You brought up John 14 to show Jesus is god, yet it states the opposite.

A careful exposition of John 14 I will not write tonight. We can examine John 14 is greater detail another time.


You are doing more preaching than actually giving any evidence to support your claims.

I did both.


You keep bringing up Isa 9 over and over, yet you refuse to actually read what it states. You take a few verses, ignore the context and surounding scripture and stay with your erroneous conclusion.

Isa 7 isnt even about Jesus. Start reading from Isa 7 to chapter 10. Slowly. Focus on the time frames given. Its quite clear.

You are simply "slow of heart" to believe all that the prophets have said, very slow of heart. In fact your heart is desperate to go the opposite direction.

You remind me of a young rabbi named Saul of Tarsus. But God had mercy on him and he went from persecutor to writing 13 of the 27 New Testament books.

Paul said that when he was opposing the Christian church he was a blasphemer:

"He has counted me faithful, appointing me to the ministry, who formerly was a blasphemer and a persecutor and an insulting person; but I was shown mercy because, being ignorant I acted in unbelief." (1 Tim. 1:12b,13)

Paul was a very strict Pharisee brought up under the instruction of Gamaliel (Acts 22:3) who was held in reputation among the teachers of the Law (Acts 5:34).

Paul being a God fearing Pharisee would never commit blasphemy against Yahweh. For Paul to now confess that he was a blasphemer while he persecuted the Christian church is for him to indicate that he now believes that Jesus was God.

Paul tells Timothy that his former persecution of Jesus included denying that Jesus was God and therefore commiting blasphemy.
I think that you also are in danger of commiting blasphemy by denying that Jesus Christ is God.

Why did Jesus not rebuke Thomas when Thomas refered to him as "My Lord and my God" ?

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 421 by hERICtic, posted 04-14-2010 10:02 PM hERICtic has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 425 by hERICtic, posted 04-15-2010 8:15 AM jaywill has not yet responded
 Message 427 by hERICtic, posted 04-15-2010 12:49 PM jaywill has responded

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 423 of 492 (555699)
04-15-2010 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 419 by Peg
04-14-2010 9:13 PM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
JW's dont do that. There are no new truths outside the bible. The bible has been provided by God and it contains all the truth we need. All our teachings come from this source...we dont invent new ones. No one should do that.
Rom. 15:4 "For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope.”

In this post we are in NEARLY 100% agreement, happily. I represented YOUR belief, to myself, about revelation from God in that previous post of yours, based on what i had read about your GROUP in articles and websites

Happily, we may be in argeement on this partiular issue, of revelation from God, what it is, and what it is not, based on atleast your words at present

The only sign a christian needs is that of faith, hope and love. Paul explained why this would be the case when he explained that the holy spirit would reveal understanding and no more signs would be needed. The signs of the past were to establish christianity, once it was establishded, no more signs would be needed:

"1Cor13:8-13 "8 Love never fails. But whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; 10 but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with....12 For at present we see in hazy outline...but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately.."

On this one i was really shocked, due to the fact that I have never seen anyone outside the Church of Christ, refer to the fading of spiritual (miraculous) gifts, in Pauls time and shortly thereafter and use the very same passage to confirm it.

We believe, "that which is perfect" to be the completed word of God, which replaces the miraclous spiritual gifts, that were given for a time, or "in part"

Also the Name Jehovah showed them that there was a clear difference between Jehovah and Jesus, thus they knew the trinity doctrine was not true and this made a lot of other things clearer with regard to the kingdom of God.

While we still disagree here and in the spirit of this thread, why would the belief that Jesus is not Jehovah, make your understanding of the kingdom CLEARER?

The study of the original hebrew words also revealed to them teachings such as the immortal soul, hellfire & pergatory were not correct....jw's thought they were all going to heaven too you know. But they were willing to change that view when their understanding increased.

When you say JWs, do you mean all Jws? you almost make it appear as though your group started out on the wrong foot and with most or alot of your views incorrect from the start.

were they correct about these things from its inception, then fell away, or what?

As i've already shown Pauls words about signs/gifts being done away with, we should look at what would would be required of christians in order for them to be blessed with knowledge.

Ok

Christians really do have to put on the 'mind of Christ' if they want to recieve holy spirit. And with holy spirit, true understanding is possible because it comes from God.

Since most groups would agree with your above statement and most believe they are guided by the Holy Spirit, yet still disagree, what is the crteria for yourself or group that says, ALRIGHT WE HAVE IT CORRECT NOW?

this is not a question to put you on the spot or trap. it is an honest inquiry as to what you think that stamp of approval actually is from the Holy Spirit

This is certainly a good transition to the other thread

Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

Edited by EMA, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 419 by Peg, posted 04-14-2010 9:13 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 424 by Peg, posted 04-15-2010 3:44 AM Dawn Bertot has responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3485 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 424 of 492 (555703)
04-15-2010 3:44 AM
Reply to: Message 423 by Dawn Bertot
04-15-2010 1:45 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
EMA writes:

On this one i was really shocked, due to the fact that I have never seen anyone outside the Church of Christ, refer to the fading of spiritual (miraculous) gifts, in Pauls time and shortly thereafter and use the very same passage to confirm it.

thats great that we do have some common ground. You would have to expect that considering we are using the same text book. Its always a positive sign and shows that truth is not so complicated that no one gets it.

EMA writes:

While we still disagree here and in the spirit of this thread, why would the belief that Jesus is not Jehovah, make your understanding of the kingdom CLEARER?

Because we know the role of Jesus is to bring manking into union with Jehovah thru the kingdom of God. His role is not to take worship away from Jehovah... remember Jehovah is Jesus God too. If we dont understand that these two are separate individuals and we worship Jesus alone, this would be detrimental to becoming united with the Creator Jehovah.

Jesus role is merely as a mediator between God and man. By understanding Jesus role, we can be united with God Jehovah. Its not Jesus we have to answer to, it is Jehovah. And the kingdoms purpose is to bring mankind back into a relationship with Jehovah as Paul shows:

1Corinth15:24 
Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. ...28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

EMA writes:

When you say JWs, do you mean all Jws? you almost make it appear as though your group started out on the wrong foot and with most or alot of your views incorrect from the start.

were they correct about these things from its inception, then fell away, or what?

Just for a brief rundown, Brother russell (where jw's started from) was originally a presbyterian so his beliefs were based on everyone elses beliefs. He was also associated with the 'congregational church' and the teachings there were things such as hellfire. Now while he did grow up believing in it, it was a teaching that he found contradictory to a 'god of love'

He simply could not accept that teaching so he studied the bible himself. This led him to make this comment: "Gradually I was led to see that though each of the creeds contained some elements of truth, they were, on the whole, misleading and contradictory of Gods Word."

Understanding didnt all come a once, there were some aspects of the bible that he clearly had wrong, but there were some major teachings that he had absolutely right and from there his bible students continued on with his work.

EMA writes:

Since most groups would agree with your above statement and most believe they are guided by the Holy Spirit, yet still disagree, what is the crteria for yourself or group that says, ALRIGHT WE HAVE IT CORRECT NOW?
this is not a question to put you on the spot or trap. it is an honest inquiry as to what you think that stamp of approval actually is from the Holy Spirit

their teachings must be in harmony with scripture...however, the teachings do not have to be 100% accurate for the reason that God only reveals what we need to know at the time we need to know it.

The most important thing is that our conduct and way of life is in imitation of Jesus. All christians have a responsibility to understand the basic requirements of christianity. If we dont take that responsilbity seriously, then God is not obligated to give us his spirit.

For example, do you think Gods spirit will dwell with someone who participates in pagan practices? Or will Gods spirit dwell with someone who does not uphold his righteousness, his love, his justice, his mercy?

We must live according to that spirit in order to be given that spirit. If we live according to his spirit, he gives us more spirit and from that understanding will come.

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 423 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-15-2010 1:45 AM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 426 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-15-2010 8:54 AM Peg has responded

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 3072 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 425 of 492 (555740)
04-15-2010 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 422 by jaywill
04-14-2010 11:48 PM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You're ignoring my previous post. Its about Hezekiah. Chapter 10 explains chapter 9. Did you even bother to read them? I also gave a list of names in the Bible that one could easily state are also god...in which they are not.

Jay writes:

I read and quite enjoyed Isaiah 10. But it doesn't matter to Jesus being the Mighty God born as a child. The entire Bible is the larger and more important context.

So you are admitting even though chapter 9 is in past tense and that Chapter 10 refers back to chapter 9 and explains the scenario...you could care less due to the fact you want Isa 9 to be about Jesus.

So in other words, regardless of the evidence, who cares?

Gotcha.

Jay writes:

In the larger context of the whole Bible, Hezekiah came short of fulfilling this prophecy and the more perfect recipient is Christ. He is the greater Hezekiah.

Hate to break it to you. The Bible is full of prophecies that have fallen short. Only by destroying the context and making excuses can apologists make it work.

Show me once in the NT where Jesus is ever called those names. Remember, you've states quite clearly those names refer to Jesus.. So please give the scripture where Jesus is called just one of those names.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The reason is that it states it! Chapter 10 mirrors chapter 9 and gives the time frame!

Jay writes:

The larger context is all of human history. And Christ is that child born who is the Jehovah the Mighty God. And He is that Son given Who is the Eternal Father.

You're doing exactly as I said you would. Dual meanings. You're ignoring the immediate context and applying your own. Jesus is never called any of those names. Not one.

In fact, you want Jesus to be called the Prince of Peace, when he himself states he did not come to bring peace but a sword. On top of that, he is to lead the charge in Revelation, warfare galore!

So I can easily state this name cannot apply to him. Naturally, you'll twist it just as I can with Hezekiah if I wished. This is exaclty why I am trying to avoid the names but to focus on the actual context.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Its a past event. How do we know? Bc it states it is! I already gave you how its written in the Tanach. I showed you that Chapter 10 mirrors chapter nine, giving a time frame.
All you are doing is focusing on the names given, to show it could only refer to Jesus. Yet I have given you a small list of many, that show the same implication.

Jay writes:

I found the reasoning weak.

I see. Its weak bc chapter ten tells you what chapter 9 is about so you dismiss it?

I deleted most of your post bc its preaching, not dealing with the actual topic. We are looking for evidence to support your position and mine. So far you haven't given any for Isa 9 except that good ol Hez falls short of the prophecy. I suppose if you stand on the notion that all prophecies are true....then there isnt any way I can change your line of thinking. Yeah, I could point out numerous prophecies that failed...but you'll just dismiss them. So we have to look at the context. First, Jesus is never called those names. Second, other names in the Bible also refer back to god. Third, chapter 10 explains chapter 9. Fourth, you cannot just take a few verses and ignore everything else around it. A story is being told, of the time of the the Assyrians.

Jay writes:

You simply ignore that Jesus is unique in the whole Bible. He is in a class all His own.

Not at all. I accept that Jesus is quite unique. But I go where the evidence leads me. A great example is that god stated he is not man. Yet you dismiss this and say god changed him mind. God also told the Jews to beware of false prophets and that he would send the messiah with certain signs. Yet Jesus arrived without any of these signs. Christians change them to end time which is not found in the OT. Its the evidence that and common sense you dismiss to make Jesus fit what you want him to be.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Moses is called god.

Jay writes:

God did not allow Moses to enter into the Promised Land because of his disobedience.

Moot point. You do this often. Focus on the topic. You believe Isa 9 has to be about Jesus based upon the names. I have given you a few example of names throughout the OT where one could say those individuals were god. Moses is not god. Yet he is called god. This is evidence that one can have a name that implies one is god...and not be.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gabriel also means "Strong God".

Jay writes:

Gabriel is an angel. The mention of Gabriel is sparse in the Bible.
(One place does refer to "the man Gabriel"). Gabriel announces something concerning the birth of the Son of God.

He is not nearly as prominent a figure in Scripture as Jesus Christ.

Jay, you're creating one strawman after another. It does not matter who Gabriel is, it matters what his name states. His name means "strong god". Now we both know he is not god, yet his name calls him that. Which backs up my point. Isa 9 states Mighty god...and you automatically assume it must be about Jesus, that it cannot refer to a person. I have shown you such names can, either to humans or angels.

Are you understanding this yet? We are discussing what names mean.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You keep dancing around every issue I bring up. John 14 states nothing about Jesus being equal to god.

Jay writes:

I disagree from the first verse in the chapter:

"Do not let your heart be troubled; believe into God, believe also into Me." (John 14:1)

Jesus puts Himself on par with God in the first verse. As we are to believe into God we are also to believe into Him.

You're missing the context again. You're taking one verse and ignoring the surrounding verses. Jesus states over and over he is sent by god, to do gods bidding. That his message is gods. That he is going gods work. By believing in Jesus, you are believing what god has sent him to do. His very message.

Jay writes:

Those with whom the Father and the Son have made an abode, through the Holy Spirit, can make absolutely no discernable difference between Them. So the term tri-une has become useful.

No difference??? Jesus throughout the gospels states there is a difference! He is not all powerful. He is a man, sent by god. He is only the messenger. That all power comes not from him but from god. That god is greater than he. He is not all knowing. I could go on....but geez Jay.....this is stated over and over in the gospels.

Jay writes:

Why did Jesus not rebuke Thomas when Thomas refered to him as "My Lord and my God" ?

I covered this. Why would he? Thomas did not call Jesus god.

Please stop preaching and focus on the issues. You keep bringing up scripture which has nothing to do with the issues at hand.

Let me ask you some questions then.

Jesus prays to god. Are you suggesting he was praying to himself?

Wouldnt it make more sense that Jesus is not god,hence why he is praying to god?

When Jesus is on the cross he cries out to god. Wouldnt it make more sense that Jesus is not god, hence why he is screaming out to him?

Jesus claims that the Father is god, and that he/Jesus has a god?
How does this make sense then if Jesus is god?

Jesus, while in heaven/ Revelation, states he has a god. If Jesus is god, why would he state that?

Why didnt Jesus ever state he is god. Not once does he say this?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by jaywill, posted 04-14-2010 11:48 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 426 of 492 (555747)
04-15-2010 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 424 by Peg
04-15-2010 3:44 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
Because we know the role of Jesus is to bring manking into union with Jehovah thru the kingdom of God. His role is not to take worship away from Jehovah... remember Jehovah is Jesus God too. If we dont understand that these two are separate individuals and we worship Jesus alone, this would be detrimental to becoming united with the Creator Jehovah.

Im not sure what you mean by "Jehovah is
jesus God too", but it is pretty certain we never agree on this topic

if I had any doubts before Jaywill's expositions, I didnt really, but if I had, he has closed the door on any of those doubts.

I can see your concerns, concerning Jesus' expressions about being sent and having no authority except from God, etc. But when they are understood in the light of recievership, servanthood and the totality of scripture, concerning his overall nature, the teaching is to easy to miss.

Whether God makes this an issue of salvation we shall see

Just for a brief rundown, Brother russell (where jw's started from) was originally a presbyterian so his beliefs were based on everyone elses beliefs.

Alot of Mr Russels and Mr Joseph Smiths beliefs were directly connect to Alexander Campbell, Barton W Stone and other restoration movement pioneers beliefs in the Churches of Christ, Deciples of Christ and the Christian Chruch, we simply believe they went to far in their estimations and escatology

Thats probably why we share the same belief concerining spiritual miraculous gifts

Peg from down under over at Melbourne writes:

For example, do you think Gods spirit will dwell with someone who participates in pagan practices? Or will Gods spirit dwell with someone who does not uphold his righteousness, his love, his justice, his mercy?

It is the first part of this post I shall proceed with the other thread, because we certainly agree on your latter statement

EAM

Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 424 by Peg, posted 04-15-2010 3:44 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
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hERICtic
Member (Idle past 3072 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 427 of 492 (555812)
04-15-2010 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 422 by jaywill
04-14-2010 11:48 PM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
Jay,

I missed a very crucial part. We seem to be stuck on Isa 9. Lets say it is about Jesus. The problem being...it does not show Jesus is god.

Remember, there were many names throughout scripture that meant "god".

So even if it refers to Jesus, it by no means is evidence that Jesus was god. They could all be names to refer back to god.

Also, Jesus is never called any of those names in the NT.

So lets move beyond Isa 9. I asked a few questions in my previous post. Answer those and then how about you give another example of Jesus "as god".

Thanks.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by jaywill, posted 04-14-2010 11:48 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 428 by jaywill, posted 04-16-2010 12:30 AM hERICtic has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 496 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 428 of 492 (555881)
04-16-2010 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 427 by hERICtic
04-15-2010 12:49 PM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
I missed a very crucial part. We seem to be stuck on Isa 9. Lets say it is about Jesus. The problem being...it does not show Jesus is god.

Isaiah 9:6 is about incarnation. A child is born. That is a human child. Yet this human child will be called the Mighty God. The Mighty God Jehovah is uncreated. How could a born child be called the uncreated Mighty God Jehovah ? It could only be by incarnation.

Of course there are many instances of Old Testament persons whose names included "God." There are not many to whom an entire testament of 27 books is utilized to discribe them.

The second line is that the son given will be called the Eternal Father. But if He is a given son how could He be the Eternal Father? It is only be incarnation of God as a man.

The Eternal Father is Jehovah God of Israel:

"But now, Jehovah, You are our Father ..." (Isaiah 64:8)

"For You are our Father, Since Abraham does not know us, And Israel does not acknowledge us. You, Jehovah, are our Father; Our Redeemer from of old is Your name." (Isa. 63:16)


Remember, there were many names throughout scripture that meant "god".

That is true. But you should closely examine the lives of these other people and compare them to Jesus.

Just one example of what to notice is instructive. God alone can forgive men their sins. Yet Jesus pronounced forgiveness of sins:

"And Jesus, seeing their faith, said to the paralytic, Child, your sins are forgiven.

But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, Why is this [man] speaking this way? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins except One, God ? " (Mark 2:5-7)

I think you should read through the New Testament Gospels and pay close attention to what Jesus did. You should see that many things set Him apart from other OT saints who had "God" in their names.


So even if it refers to Jesus, it by no means is evidence that Jesus was god. They could all be names to refer back to god.

The accumulated evidence is that Jesus taught and acted as God become a man.


Also, Jesus is never called any of those names in the NT.

I showed you where Thomas called Him God. I showed you where Jesus Himself so closely identifies Himself with the Father that to see Him is to see the Father.

I do not think it is necessary to locate a NT passage specifying each particular title used in reference to Jesus. Anytime from then unto eternity will suffice for men coming around to realizing Who He is.

The first name He is called in Isaiah 9:6 is Wonderful. This Hebrew word pehleh takes on these meanings:

hard to understand,
unusual,
unheard of,
extraordinary,
beyond one's powers,
too difficult,
incomprehensible

We see instructive use of the word pehleh in these passages:

Genesis 18:14 - Is anything TOO HARD for the Lord?"

Psalm 139:6 - "Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it."

Judges 13:18 - "But the Angel of the Lord said to him, why do you ask My name, seeing it is Wonderful?"

Anything Wonderful is not easy to explain. It is full of wonder. It is wonderful that God could become a born child. That means that the Creator of the universe was a little baby in the womb of a woman for nine months. Incarnation is Pehleh - Wonderful.

That the Son of the Father embodies, expresses, and manifests the Father in total harmony is also pehleh - Wonderful. Many good saints came and went in the Old Testament. None expressed God so fully as Christ.


So lets move beyond Isa 9. I asked a few questions in my previous post. Answer those and then how about you give another example of Jesus "as god".

Jesus had to be a man to be able to die. Yet He had to be God to make the effectiveness of that death have eternal effect and significance.

His miraculous birth, and sinless life, miracles, wisdom, signs, death in total obedience, and His victorious resurrection prove that He is God mingled with man .

He says that if they destroy His body He Himself will raise it up in three days. Jehovah God kills and makes alive. And God alone is the Giver of life (1 Sam. 2:6; Deut.32:9) . He demonstrates divine authority throughout His minsistry. And His resurrection seals that He is Deity.

Another way that Jesus claimed to be God was by his statement that all men should "honor the Son, even as they honor the Father" (John 5:23). In the same way in chapter 14 He says "You believe into God. Believe also into Me" (John 14:1) . The pretensions of this command to a monotheistic people is evident. The Jews know that no man should claim honor and belief with God.

But Jesus did not simply make these claims. He had a life which backed up His extraordinary claims.

Jesus also applied the messianic prophecies to Himself. He applied Psalm 110:1 to Himself as David's Lord in Matthew 22:43-44.

In His trial He applied the messianic passage of Daniel 7:13 to Himself before the High Priest. You can imagine how infuriated they were. They imagined that His life was in their hands to instantly execute or pardon. And in such a threatening environment He says that from now on they will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of Heaven.

Thier reaction - "Why do we still need witnesses? You have heard his blasphemy! .

Furthermore the Old Testament forbade worship of anyone but God [b](Exodus 20:1-4; Deut. 5:6-9). Men were not to accept worship (Acts 14:15). And even angels refused to be worshipped (Rev.22:8,9). Jesus, however, received worship on at least nine occasions in the NT. I will not specify them in this post.

Jesus not only accepted titles and worship due to Deity alone. Jesus placed His words on par with the words of God - "You have heard that it was said to men of old, ... But I say unto you ..." (Matt. 5:21,22). The formula is repeated a number of times placing the words of Jesus on par or even above the words of God in the OT.

Jesus says that all authority in heaven and earth is given to Him after His resurrection. His actions displayed divine authority. His talk was not empty talk, but backed up with extraordinary deeds - signs and miracles.

And in Revelation the resurrected Christ refers to Himself as the First and the Last. Jehovah God said He was the only God and the First and the Last in Isaiah 42:8. Jesus says precisely the same thing. It is up to us to believe or not.

In the Old Testament Jehovah God is the light - "Jehovah is our light" (Psalm 27:1) In incarnation Jesus says "I am the light of the world." (John 8:12) .

I could go on much more. These are examples that it was not merely a matter of a name. It was a matter of His life and deeds which manifested the reality of those names.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 427 by hERICtic, posted 04-15-2010 12:49 PM hERICtic has not yet responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3485 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 429 of 492 (555886)
04-16-2010 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 426 by Dawn Bertot
04-15-2010 8:54 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
EMA writes:

Im not sure what you mean by "Jehovah is
jesus God too", but it is pretty certain we never agree on this topic

John 20:17 "...Go to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "


This message is a reply to:
 Message 426 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-15-2010 8:54 AM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 496 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 430 of 492 (556232)
04-18-2010 8:55 AM


John 20:17 "...Go to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "

I don't know if and how Peg intends this verse to argue that Jesus is not God incarnate. It doesn't show that at all.

It does show that John, in his Gospel, did not records Jesus calling His disciples brothers until after His resurrection. He did not refer the God being their Father until after His resurrection.

The most intimate term that Jesus used to discribe His disciples before His resurrection was "friends" (John 15:13-14). He said that slave do not know what their master is doing. But He would inform His friends all things that He was doing. So before the death and resurrection of Jesus, He considered His discples as close as friends.

After the resurrection He counts them brothers because is God's eyes all regenerated people were regenerated at the resurrection of Jesus Christ. He then became the Firstborn Son of God. He released the divine life that was concealed within the shell of His humanity. And He dispensed this divine life into His disciples, His "friends".

On this side of resurrection, the Onlybegotten Son of God is now also the Firstborn Son of God with many brothers. His God is their God. His Father is also their Father. They also particate in the mingling of God and man.

This matter is disclosed in John's Gospel more than in the synoptics. Matthew does have Jesus refering to God as the Father of the disciples even before His death and resurrection. John does not. I think it was a difference in what the two evangelists were wanting to emphasize. The time element of when the disciples became born again as children of God is not as important to Matthew's account.

I have written this without extensive proof texts. They can be provided. Paul in Romans, John in his Gospel, and the book of Acts reveal that the resurrection of Jesus was a birth and not simply "coming back to life". He was born the Firstborn Son of God and all His believers were considered born with Him on that day.

Peter writes that all the saved ones have been regenerated - born again, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." (1 Pet. 1:3)

At that time Jesus could now say that His God was their God and His Father was also their Father.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 431 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-20-2010 9:25 AM jaywill has responded

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 431 of 492 (556526)
04-20-2010 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 430 by jaywill
04-18-2010 8:55 AM


"The most intimate term that Jesus used to discribe His disciples before His resurrection was "friends" (John 15:13-14). He said that slave do not know what their master is doing. But He would inform His friends all things that He was doing. So before the death and resurrection of Jesus, He considered His discples as close as friends."

How would you interpret your ideology here in light of what Christ said, when he said, "Who is my brother or sister, father or mother, but he who does the will of my father who is in heaven"

I have written this without extensive proof texts. They can be provided. Paul in Romans, John in his Gospel, and the book of Acts reveal that the resurrection of Jesus was a birth and not simply "coming back to life". He was born the Firstborn Son of God and all His believers were considered born with Him on that day.

Peter writes that all the saved ones have been regenerated - born again, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." (1 Pet. 1:3)

At that time Jesus could now say that His God was their God and His Father was also their Father.

With this part I fully agree and it is a very good point you make and one people should be very aware of.

Uh oh, I ended my sentence in a preposition again, much to Cavedivers dissatisfaction, Im sure.

Little does he know, I also SPLIT MY INFINITIVES and DANGLE MY MODIFIER , especially when the wife is not in a bad mood, ha ha.

EAM

Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

Edited by EMA, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 430 by jaywill, posted 04-18-2010 8:55 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 432 by jaywill, posted 04-21-2010 7:56 AM Dawn Bertot has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 496 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 432 of 492 (556816)
04-21-2010 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 431 by Dawn Bertot
04-20-2010 9:25 AM


How would you interpret your ideology here in light of what Christ said, when he said, "Who is my brother or sister, father or mother, but he who does the will of my father who is in heaven"

I was careful to note that this matter of intimate terms, from "friends" to "brothers" is perculiar to the Gospel of John.

The synoptics, I believe, do not follow this scheme. The passage you refer to is in the synoptics. And I pointed out that Matthew records Jesus speaking of "your Father" before the resurrection.

This is not without some problems to me, because on the cross, in John's Gospel, Jesus did seem to bring His mother and the disciple John into a closer relationship. He told John and His mother to behold each other now as family members.

But I do think John is attempting to highlight that in resurrection, Jesus entered into a more intimate relationship with His followers.

In one or two of the synoptics Jesus implies that those who do the will of His Father are His kin. They form the supportive and sympathetic mother, brother and sister to Him.

Those doing the will of His Father are the closest to Him.

As for grammer, as long as I remember the rule "Don't use no double negatives" I'm happy.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 431 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-20-2010 9:25 AM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
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Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 433 of 492 (556824)
04-21-2010 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 432 by jaywill
04-21-2010 7:56 AM


This is not without some problems to me, because on the cross, in John's Gospel, Jesus did seem to bring His mother and the disciple John into a closer relationship. He told John and His mother to behold each other now as family members.

But I do think John is attempting to highlight that in resurrection, Jesus entered into a more intimate relationship with His followers.

Now I got ya.

A quick side note and thought, to see what you insight might be on the subject

An argument against the authenticity of the Pauline letters and Paul himself and the idea that it may be all fabricated, to begin with, some asks, "Where was Paul during Jesus' ministry"?

That is, if Paul was this advocate and zealot for the Law of Moses and those traditions as is indicated in Acts and his letters, surely he heard of Christ, the notariaty, fame and miracles during his ministry, correct.

Why did he not go witness and pursue him during that time period

Would paul not have been converted if he had saw and witnessed Jesus words and miracles

it seems that only after these events that Paul seems to come on the scene

Could he have not actually been aware of Jesus fame and reputation before said events in the book of Acts?

What are your thoughts concerning these matters

EAM

EAM

Edited by EMA, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 432 by jaywill, posted 04-21-2010 7:56 AM jaywill has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 435 by Peg, posted 04-21-2010 6:29 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3485 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 434 of 492 (556924)
04-21-2010 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 432 by jaywill
04-21-2010 7:56 AM


jaywill writes:

The synoptics, I believe, do not follow this scheme. The passage you refer to is in the synoptics. And I pointed out that Matthew records Jesus speaking of "your Father" before the resurrection.

what about when he was on the stake and cried out to God
"My God My God, why have you forsaken me?"

Or when he taught his followers how to pray and he called God "OUR father who is in heavens"

This was before his resurrection. It obviously wasnt only after his resurrection that he refered to God as his own.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 432 by jaywill, posted 04-21-2010 7:56 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 436 by jaywill, posted 04-21-2010 7:54 PM Peg has not yet responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3485 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 435 of 492 (556930)
04-21-2010 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 433 by Dawn Bertot
04-21-2010 9:20 AM


EMA writes:

An argument against the authenticity of the Pauline letters and Paul himself and the idea that it may be all fabricated, to begin with, some asks, "Where was Paul during Jesus' ministry"?

Paul was never a diciple of christ, he was originally an opposer of christ.

He was Saul of Tarsus. A Pharisee. It was Paul who began the persecution against the christian congregation. Paul was the one who oversaw the murder of Stephen.


Acts 13:9 "Saul, who is also Paul, becoming filled with holy spirit, looked at him intently"

Philipians 3:4-7 "If any other man thinks he has grounds for confidence in the flesh, I the more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, out of the family stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew [born] from Hebrews; as respects law, a Pharisee; 6 as respects zeal, persecuting the congregation; as respects righteousness that is by means of law, one who proved himself blameless. 7 Yet what things were gains to me, these I have considered loss on account of the Christ"

Acts 8:1-3 "Saul, for his part, was approving of the murder of him.
On that day great persecution arose against the congregation that was in Jerusalem; all except the apostles were scattered throughout the regions of Ju‧de′a and Sa‧mar′i‧a. 2 But reverent men carried Stephen to the burial, and they made a great lamentation over him. 3 Saul, though, began to deal outrageously with the congregation. Invading one house after another and, dragging out both men and women, he would turn them over to prison.

Acts 9:1-2  "But Saul, still breathing threat and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, in order that he might bring bound to Jerusalem any whom he found who belonged to The Way, both men and women"

EMA writes:

Why did he not go witness and pursue him during that time period

Paul explained himself why that was the case.

Galatians 13:1 "YOU, of course, heard about my conduct formerly in Ju′da‧ism, that to the point of excess I kept on persecuting the congregation of God and devastating it, 14 and I was making greater progress in Ju′da‧ism than many of my own age in my race, as I was far more zealous for the traditions of my fathers."

He was zelous for the laws and traditions of judaism. He probably believed the christians were deviating from the law that he held so dear. You know, he wasnt the only jew who denied Jesus miracles...there were many who actually witnessed them and continued to deny them. If Paul did witness jesus miracles, he was likely blinded by his own loyalty to the mosaic law and traditions like many others were.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 433 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-21-2010 9:20 AM Dawn Bertot has responded

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