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Author Topic:   Is Jesus God?
Peg
Member (Idle past 3485 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 451 of 492 (557211)
04-23-2010 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 448 by Dawn Bertot
04-23-2010 8:43 AM


EMA writes:

Doesnt tradition say he he gave his life for his Lord in 65 AD, at about age 62. This would have made him close to 30 at the time of his conversion and Stephens death.

yes you could be right on that point. We have no indicators of age because as i mentioned in the other thread, the jews didnt celebrate birthdays so its hard to know an exact age when paul died. We know he was in prison when he was likely put to death and that was during Nero's reign.

EMA writes:

It is interesting to me that he has nothing to say (nor the book of Acts) about his doing and going about, during Christs ministry.

the bible wasnt written for the posterity of Paul or any other christians so to expect to see more information about their individual lives seems a bit besides the point. The point of the scriptures is to promote God...not the christians.

I dont find it strange that we dont know more about Paul. The few things we do know is enough. The fact is that Paul was not a diciple of Jesus before 33ce and was unknown to the early diciples so why do we need to know everything about pauls life before his conversion?

EMA writes:

these two I dismiss as improbable, due to the nature and popularity of Christ at that time.

On the one hand we want to defend Josephus' reference to Christ while others are dismissing it. Then when in another conversation people (we) often want to to down play the notiriaty and popularity of Christ and reduce it to a small area and a small group of people.

i think you are over stating the facts about Jesus popularity. After Jesus death we are told he had 5,000 diciples. Do you know what the population of Jerusalem was when Jesus died?

it was well over 1 million because in 70ce we are told by Josephus that 1million jews were killed by the romans. Whats that as a percentage of the population?

Less then 1 percent. Its actually 0.5 % and this is only going off an estimate of the population.

So no, i dont believe that jesus was all that popular by any means.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 448 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-23-2010 8:43 AM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 454 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-24-2010 9:57 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 496 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 452 of 492 (557230)
04-24-2010 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 449 by Dawn Bertot
04-23-2010 2:33 PM


Succintly. Thats funny.

You should be able to see what we are talking about in 447 and 448. Maybe together we can bring this question back to the original topic

I was confessing that I was being lazy that night.


P.S did you ever get back into computer programming

No. Almost. But no.

I think it is really all over for computer programming. I am trying to develop music teaching as a new career.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 449 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-23-2010 2:33 PM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 496 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 453 of 492 (557256)
04-24-2010 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 450 by Peg
04-23-2010 7:24 PM


Jaywill, why would God, who always identified himself as Jehovah in the OT, suddenly identify himself as Jesus?

God also identified Himself as the One who would be pierced and mourned for as an only son:

"And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and of supplications;
and they will look upon Me, whom they have pierced; and they will wail over Him with wailing as for an only son and cry bitterly over Him with bitter crying as for a firstborn son." (Zech. 12:10)

The book of Revelation refers to this passage when it discribes the visible return of Jesus Christ to the tribes of the holy land in His second coming:

"Behold, He [Jesus] comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the land will mourn over Him. Yes, amen." (Rev. 1:7)

The pierced God refered to in Zechariah is the incarnated Jesus who was crucified for our sins in the New Testament.


And in the following verse, why does Jesus not call himself 'God'? It seems strange considering he has returned to his original position by this stage, yet he calls himself by an inferior earthly name.

Acts 9:3 "Now as he was traveling he approached Damascus, when suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him, 4 and he fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him: “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” 5 He said: “Who are you, Lord?” He said: “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting."

By this time He is God-man.

He exalted the Father to the uttermost. And in turn the Father exalts the Son to the uttermost.

"Therefore also God highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, And every tongue should openly confess that JESUS CHRIST is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:9-11)

Compare this exaltation of the God-man Jesus with what Jehovah says in Isaiah 45:23,24:

"I have sworn by Myself; A word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness And will not return, That every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall swear. And it shall be said of Me, Only in Jehovah is there righteousness and strength ..." (Isa. 45:23,24a)

The Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, is therefore Jehovah God from the Father.

The Trinity is truth.


If you look at the hebrew scriptures, God always refers to himself by his name Jehovah as do his prophets. I find it completely strange and highly unlikely that his name would now change to Jesus.

I have shown you the Jesus is the Jehovah God who says He is pierced and mourned over as an only son.

I have shown you that to Jesus as to Jehovah of the OT every knee shall bow and tongue confess.

Numerous times I have had Jehovahs Witnesses to come to my doorstep. When I got down on my knees before them and gladly confessed Jesus Christ as Lord, I invited them to join me. Not once have they done so.

You have never explained why Jehovah would change the name of the angel Michael to be Jesus Christ.

I do not believe the angel Michael is the Lord and Savior or that we all will bow the knee to Michael and confess his lordship. Rather I believe that to bow the knee to Jesus and to confess Jesus as Lord is to also fulfill Jehovah's promise that all will bow to Him in Isa, 45:23.

Jehovah does say that He will not give His glory to another (Isa. 42:8). So Trinity is a reality and the glory of God is in the face of Jesus.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 450 by Peg, posted 04-23-2010 7:24 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 455 by Peg, posted 04-24-2010 7:00 PM jaywill has responded

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 454 of 492 (557293)
04-24-2010 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 451 by Peg
04-23-2010 8:10 PM


yes you could be right on that point. We have no indicators of age because as i mentioned in the other thread, the jews didnt celebrate birthdays so its hard to know an exact age when paul died. We know he was in prison when he was likely put to death and that was during Nero's reign.

I am sure this date is a close chronological estimation based on the timeline of both Christs dates and those dates that relate to specific events historical eventslike the different herods, etc. So they are probably pretty accurate

the bible wasnt written for the posterity of Paul or any other christians so to expect to see more information about their individual lives seems a bit besides the point. The point of the scriptures is to promote God...not the christians.

I agree, but this is just a little harmless enquiry, correct. Geez monieez

I dont find it strange that we dont know more about Paul. The few things we do know is enough. The fact is that Paul was not a diciple of Jesus before 33ce and was unknown to the early diciples so why do we need to know everything about pauls life before his conversion?

The reason I posed this idea was that it is common for Paul to indirectly include things of his past into an argument to show his deprevation at previous times. it seem reasonable that he would have included atleast one single thing previous to his conversion, but nothing. Its just an observation, Geez

i think you are over stating the facts about Jesus popularity. After Jesus death we are told he had 5,000 diciples. Do you know what the population of Jerusalem was when Jesus died?

I think you miss my point and I apologize if I did not make myself clear. By popularity I dont mean number i mean ACTUALITY and reality. there was apparently no phoniness in Christ, in both his words and his deeds. His fame (actuality) spread like wildfire

He was not a fake or a fraud that could be dismissed

Its simply hard to believe Paul could have missed or not given any attention to the noise Christ was making. Yes I am aware that christ told his desciples not to tell people at times, but then you have Roman rulers of armies coming to him having never even seen him before requesting things of Him

So no, i dont believe that jesus was all that popular by any means.

I think if he was brought to the attention of Pilot, I may have to disagree. the one thing that did of course surpress some of his notiriaty was the fact that he would not perform in front of such characters. So there reports to their superiors was that he was just a trouble causing preacher, like you and Jaywill, Ha Ha

While the numbers may have been great, the actual fame of a person amoung that number would have been still great, even if not everyone observed him.

Now, narrow that down to the Jews, that fame would have been even greater. Knowing Pauls interest in such matters and the expression, description and words given about Christ, for example the women at the well, her reaction, the raising of Lazurus and such things, it seem that it would have been almost impossible that such fame could have excaped the attention of Paul.

I dont see how, BUT MAYBE IT DID

EAM

Edited by EMA, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by Peg, posted 04-23-2010 8:10 PM Peg has not yet responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3485 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 455 of 492 (557351)
04-24-2010 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 453 by jaywill
04-24-2010 1:08 AM


jaywill writes:

God also identified Himself as the One who would be pierced and mourned for as an only son:

If God died, who brought him back to life?

Or is that Jesus really did not die at all?

The only reason why any of the scriptures you use 'appear' to be saying what you imply they say is because you have made Jehovah into jesus and Jesus into Jehovah.

Of course if you do that, then your trinity stands up. But its not honest to do so.

Jaywill writes:

Numerous times I have had Jehovahs Witnesses to come to my doorstep. When I got down on my knees before them and gladly confessed Jesus Christ as Lord, I invited them to join me. Not once have they done so.

thats because we worship Jehovah and only Jehovah. Jesus is the one whom Jehovah has commissioned to bring mankind into harmony with himself...that is his role. But his role is not to take worship away from Jehovah.

jaywill writes:

You have never explained why Jehovah would change the name of the angel Michael to be Jesus Christ.

Christ means 'messiah' and Jesus was the name given to the Messiah by his mother mary. His earthly name was really just Jesus. It was only after he was identified as the Messiah that they called him the Christ/Messiah. His earthly name has no bearing on his heavenly name.

jaywill writes:

I do not believe the angel Michael is the Lord and Savior or that we all will bow the knee to Michael and confess his lordship. Rather I believe that to bow the knee to Jesus and to confess Jesus as Lord is to also fulfill Jehovah's promise that all will bow to Him in Isa, 45:23.

Scriptural evidence shows that after Jesus returned to heaven, his name went back to what it was. Michael is the only angel called the “the archangel,” meaning the foremost or chief angel. There is only one of them mentioned so it shows that God has designated one of the angels the head of all the angels.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 tells us that Jesus will decend with the voice of an 'archangel'
16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet

so obviously, seeing there is only 1 archangel, it must be Jesus. Also, Jesus was given all authority in heaven and on earth, so its reasonable that his 'authority' in heaven would make him the head of all the other angels up there because the archangel is the chief angel...or the first angel.

jaywill writes:

Jehovah does say that He will not give His glory to another (Isa. 42:8). So Trinity is a reality and the glory of God is in the face of Jesus.

this is where your reasoning confuses me everytime. You aknowledge that Jehovah does not give his glory to any other individual, but you also say that Jesus is God....this means that God gives his glory to Jesus....another individual.

Either God does not give his glory to anyone else, or he does....which is it?

Either he gives it to Jesus, or he doesnt....it can't be both.

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by jaywill, posted 04-24-2010 1:08 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 456 by jaywill, posted 04-25-2010 6:16 PM Peg has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 496 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 456 of 492 (557444)
04-25-2010 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 455 by Peg
04-24-2010 7:00 PM


If God died, who brought him back to life?

The passage I quoted simply said that they would look upon Me [Jehovah] Who they have pierced. And they will mourn for Him as an only son.

The "Him" must be Jesus.

It is understandable that human logic would ask "Well, if Jesus if God, and God died, then who raised God up from the dead ?"

God did. Who else ?
We are not commanded to be able to explain. We are commanded to believe into Christ. And that is what I have done though I could come up with many good questions just as you could.

Did you ever come across the passage which reads "And the peace of God, which SURPASSES every [mans's] understanding, will ruar your hearts and your thoughts in Christ Jesus." (Phil. 4:7)

Receiving Christ into my spirit brought the peace which surpasses every man's understanding. The surpassing PEACE within convinces me that I can trust the statements of the Bible even though some of them are hard to logically reconcile.

I don't think the Bible ever says "God died". But it does speak of His blood, Him being pierced. So this is very mysterious to us. But the peace of His indwelling surpasses any troubling brought about by the limitations of our ability to explain the eternal and uncreated Divine Being.


Or is that Jesus really did not die at all?

Above I wrote to you that I don't think I can find a verse saying "God died". However, you know that it says Jesus died many times.

Once again. I am not commanded to be able to explain. I am charged to BELIEVE and RECEIVE Christ. And the peace of God surpasses every man's understanding.

Like it or not, our human minds are simply limited. But the Triune God can still impart His life and His Spirit into our being. And it brings great peace that transcends every man's limited understanding or ability to answer every question.


The only reason why any of the scriptures you use 'appear' to be saying what you imply they say is because you have made Jehovah into jesus and Jesus into Jehovah.

Of course if you do that, then your trinity stands up. But its not honest to do so.

The Bible says that the Father is God. It also says that the Son is God. It also says that the Holy Spirit is God. I say "Amen".

You accuse me of lying. God will be the Judge. We will see if I am lying or not because I say that the word of God says the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are God.


Jaywill writes:
Numerous times I have had Jehovahs Witnesses to come to my doorstep. When I got down on my knees before them and gladly confessed Jesus Christ as Lord, I invited them to join me. Not once have they done so.

thats because we worship Jehovah and only Jehovah. Jesus is the one whom Jehovah has commissioned to bring mankind into harmony with himself...that is his role. But his role is not to take worship away from Jehovah.

Regardless, you should still be HAPPY to bow the knee to Jesus and confess Jesus as Lord according to (Philippians 2:9-11)

Did you not read it?

" ... that all may honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him." (John 5:23)

There must be other reasons why you JWs cannot honor the Son. Your ploy to make Him an archangel, tragically, I consider as hypocritical as the kiss of Judas.

You pretend honor. But your intention is exposed as a fighting against Jehovah incarnate as the man Jesus.


jaywill writes:
You have never explained why Jehovah would change the name of the angel Michael to be Jesus Christ.

Christ means 'messiah' and Jesus was the name given to the Messiah by his mother mary. His earthly name was really just Jesus. It was only after he was identified as the Messiah that they called him the Christ/Messiah. His earthly name has no bearing on his heavenly name.

First He is called Emmanuel which means God with us.
Jesus was not only called God with us. He acted like God with us. And I do not expect anyone else to come along to testify more strongly that God is with us than the human life of Jesus.


jaywill writes:
I do not believe the angel Michael is the Lord and Savior or that we all will bow the knee to Michael and confess his lordship. Rather I believe that to bow the knee to Jesus and to confess Jesus as Lord is to also fulfill Jehovah's promise that all will bow to Him in Isa, 45:23.

Scriptural evidence shows that after Jesus returned to heaven, his name went back to what it was.

This is simply wrong.

At the end of the book of Revelation, after Jesus has ascended to Heaven, He says "I JESUS have sent My angel to testify to you these things ..." (Rev. 22:17)

He refers to His name there, Jesus.

In similar manner, AFTER His ascension He tells the persecutor Saul - "I am JESUS, whom you persecute" (Acts 9:5)


jaywill writes:
Jehovah does say that He will not give His glory to another (Isa. 42:8). So Trinity is a reality and the glory of God is in the face of Jesus.

this is where your reasoning confuses me everytime. You aknowledge that Jehovah does not give his glory to any other individual, but you also say that Jesus is God....this means that God gives his glory to Jesus....another individual.

Either God does not give his glory to anyone else, or he does....which is it?

Either he gives it to Jesus, or he doesnt....it can't be both.

Jesus is not "another" as in "another God". Jesus is, however, the Word who was God become flesh.

This is the Trinity. The Three are distinct but not separate. And none of the Three is "another" God. There is no other God.

But in the move of God to impart and dispense Himself into man, the Triune God passes through these "becommings" in order to arrive at being the life of man.

1.) The Word became flesh (John 1:14)
2.) The last Adam became a life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45)

None of these becommings represent "another" God for there is only God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 455 by Peg, posted 04-24-2010 7:00 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 457 by Peg, posted 04-25-2010 7:23 PM jaywill has responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3485 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 457 of 492 (557446)
04-25-2010 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 456 by jaywill
04-25-2010 6:16 PM


jaywill writes:

The passage I quoted simply said that they would look upon Me [Jehovah] Who they have pierced. And they will mourn for Him as an only son.

The "Him" must be Jesus.

did you know that John quoted from this verse in Zechariah and he rendered it quite differently to the way our modern translators have?

In John 19:35-37 he says: 36 In fact, these things took place in order for the scripture to be fulfilled: “Not a bone of his will be crushed.” 37 And, again, a different scripture says: “THEY WILL LOOK TO THE ONE WHOM THEY PIERCED"

obviously John did not read the verse in zechariah the same way you are reading it. I think i will stick with Johns rendition and say that the verse in Zechariah does not contain the word 'me' but rather simply states 'they will look to the one whom they pierced'

jaywill writes:

It is understandable that human logic would ask "Well, if Jesus if God, and God died, then who raised God up from the dead ?"

God did. Who else ?

you realise that this means that God did not die which is why you dont want to ask any more questions about it.

Unfortunately, if God did not die, then there was no sacrifice for sins and mankind cannot be redeemed.

So either God died, or he didnt.

jaywill writes:

I don't think the Bible ever says "God died". But it does speak of His blood, Him being pierced. So this is very mysterious to us. But the peace of His indwelling surpasses any troubling brought about by the limitations of our ability to explain the eternal and uncreated Divine Being.

thats fairy talk. We cant explain something so we just ignore it???

No i can't accept that at all. God did not make the knowledge of him so confusing and confounding that we must simply ignore what we dont understand. He provides a clear and logical truth in the scritpures and the only way to attain that logical truth is by not adding untrue man made doctrines. The trinity is the very doctrine that causes you to ignore this question about whether God really died or not. You cant answer it because the trinity completely contradicts what the scriptures tell us.

Jesus died for 3 days....he was killed and buried and there were many witnesses who testified to Jesus death. They wrapped him in cloth and buried him in a tomb. The one who raised him was his father Jehovah.

jaywill writes:

Once again. I am not commanded to be able to explain. I am charged to BELIEVE and RECEIVE Christ. And the peace of God surpasses every man's understanding.

this is not the way believers in the first century accepted christianity. According to Acts the christians were individuals who examined the scriptures before they would accept them.
Acts 17:11 Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thes‧sa‧lo‧ni′ca, for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so.

If something doesnt add up, you should find out why it doesnt add up rather then just accept that it doesnt add up...otherwise what is your faith based on???


This message is a reply to:
 Message 456 by jaywill, posted 04-25-2010 6:16 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 458 by jaywill, posted 04-26-2010 10:39 AM Peg has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 496 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 458 of 492 (557505)
04-26-2010 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 457 by Peg
04-25-2010 7:23 PM


did you know that John quoted from this verse in Zechariah and he rendered it quite differently to the way our modern translators have?

In John 19:35-37 he says: 36 In fact, these things took place in order for the scripture to be fulfilled: “Not a bone of his will be crushed.” 37 And, again, a different scripture says: “THEY WILL LOOK TO THE ONE WHOM THEY PIERCED"

obviously John did not read the verse in zechariah the same way you are reading it. I think i will stick with Johns rendition and say that the verse in Zechariah does not contain the word 'me' but rather simply states 'they will look to the one whom they pierced'

That is fine. John has already told us that the Word that was with God and was God became flesh (John 1:1,14).


jaywill writes:
It is understandable that human logic would ask "Well, if Jesus if God, and God died, then who raised God up from the dead ?"

God did. Who else ?

you realise that this means that God did not die which is why you dont want to ask any more questions about it.

You can ask all the questions you want. I have no problem in replying "I don't know."


Unfortunately, if God did not die, then there was no sacrifice for sins and mankind cannot be redeemed.

So either God died, or he didnt.

You are just being clever now. Is it not true that no passage says that God died?

Yes or no?

Is it not also true that according to Acts 20:28 spoke of the church of God "which He obtained theough His own blood"?

We can speak where the Bible speaks and be silent where the Bible is silent.

Where does it say Michael the angel died and rose for the redemption of sinners ?


jaywill writes:
I don't think the Bible ever says "God died". But it does speak of His blood, Him being pierced. So this is very mysterious to us. But the peace of His indwelling surpasses any troubling brought about by the limitations of our ability to explain the eternal and uncreated Divine Being.

thats fairy talk. We cant explain something so we just ignore it???

We do not ignore. We participate, partake, and enjoy.

I participate and enjoy the Triune God as the Bible instructs me to do. That does not mean that my limited mind can explain everything about the Triune God.


No i can't accept that at all. God did not make the knowledge of him so confusing and confounding

If you were a partaker and enjoyer of God's life in Christ you would not spend so much time confused and confounded.


that we must simply ignore what we dont understand.

We do not ignore. We confess our limitations and we receive the Holy Spirit and walk by Him.


He provides a clear and logical truth in the scritpures and the only way to attain that logical truth is by not adding untrue man made doctrines.

The enjoyment of God subjectively can be thwarted not only by wrong doctrines but even by right ones.

You need to touch your innermost being, your human spirit in prayer and obey the command - "Receive the Holy Spirit".

But in your pride you are obsessed with "Figure out the Holy Spirit"


The trinity is the very doctrine that causes you to ignore this question about whether God really died or not.

I know that Jesus is God and is man.

Like Thomas, I view His resurrectred body and respond "My Lord and my God."

Philosophical musings, I enjoy just as much as the next person. But I want to experience the resurrected Christ and fellowship with God. I do not let deep philosophical musings about God dying interfere with that.

Jesus said "Come unto me and drink". A glass of water is also actually a very profound thing. Suppose I spent days just discussing the chemical make up of the water and refused to drink? I may boast myself on being an intellectual powerhouse. In the mean time I die of thirst.

I want to receive the Triune God and live by Him. I do not want human pride to distract me with the challenge of being able to explain everything about the Triune God before I receive Him and live through Him.

I think the truest understanding comes through living Christ.


You cant answer it because the trinity completely contradicts what the scriptures tell us.

basically, the belief in trinity is the confession the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. That is what the Bible says. So it does not contradict Scripture at all.

It may contradict human pride.


Jesus died for 3 days....he was killed and buried and there were many witnesses who testified to Jesus death. They wrapped him in cloth and buried him in a tomb. The one who raised him was his father Jehovah.

I agree. But in the spirit of believing ALL that the Scipture says He had the authority to lay down His life AND the authority to take it up again (John 10:18).

And He also challenges "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up."

So we learn ALL that the Bible says. Furthermore the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the died is identical with the Spirit of Christ and Christ Himself in the experience of the believers:

"Yet you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the SPIRIT OF GOD dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, he is not of Him. But if CHRIST is in you, ... And if the SPIRIT OF THE ONE WHO RAISED JESUS FROM THE DEAD dwells in you, He who raised Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." (Rom. 8:9-11)

The Spirit of God is interchangeable with the Spirit of Christ. And the Spirit of Christ is interchangeable with Christ. And Christ is interchangeable with the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead.

Each one is said to be indwelling the disciples. Each is a matter of God dwelling in man. So those who have been regenerated in the new birth can discern NO DIFFERENCE between these. To us Christ is the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead.

And to us who have received the Spirit of God, He is Christ. And He gives divine life. "The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

I am not commenting further because I do not acknowledge when you write something wrong. You talk about ignoring. But you ignore when you say Jesus after ascension took on the old name Michael and I proved beyond a shadow of doubt that you were mistaken.

You ignore and continue with a "business as usual" attitude. If you do not have the decency to admit you made an error I feel no obligation to further address your issues.

Talking about ignoring ?? Admit that Jesus STILL refers to Himself as JESUS after His ascension to Heaven. Do that before you concoct more issues.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by Peg, posted 04-25-2010 7:23 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 459 by Peg, posted 04-26-2010 7:54 PM jaywill has responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3485 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 459 of 492 (557564)
04-26-2010 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 458 by jaywill
04-26-2010 10:39 AM


jaywill writes:

You are just being clever now. Is it not true that no passage says that God died?

Yes or no?

Yes. This is because Jehovah did not die. Only Jesus died.

jaywill writes:

Where does it say Michael the angel died and rose for the redemption of sinners ?

Daniel was the prophet who spoke about the last days, yes? He mentioned that at that time, 'the time of the end', Micheal would stand up as a redeemer for the people of God

Daniel 12:1-9 12 “And during that time Mi′cha‧el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people. And there will certainly occur a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, every one who is found written down in the book... 9 And he went on to say: “Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end..."

We also know that Jesus speaks about the 'time of the end' in Matthew and he tells us that, as the son of man, he will appear with great power and glory and rid the earth of Gods enemies

Matt 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

And revelation also tells us that Jesus is the one who appears
Rev 1:7 Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him

So Daniels prophecy ties in with these because it shows that in his heavenly position before he came to earth he was in fact the 'foremost' prince of heaven, the one who will bring an end to all mankinds woes....and we know him as Jesus christ.

jaywill writes:

I am not commenting further because I do not acknowledge when you write something wrong. You talk about ignoring. But you ignore when you say Jesus after ascension took on the old name Michael and I proved beyond a shadow of doubt that you were mistaken.

You ignore and continue with a "business as usual" attitude. If you do not have the decency to admit you made an error I feel no obligation to further address your issues.

my point is that, before he came to earth, his heavenly name was Micheal. We on earth know him as Jesus and he identified himself to Paul as Jesus because it was Jesus that Paul knew.

We still know him as Jesus, but my point is simply that his heavenly name was always Micheal. It was Micheal when Daniel wrote about him as the Angel who would stand up in the last days....and even Jude acknowledges this when he says "the Lord will decend with an Archangels voice"

your right, i made an error in saying that after his ascention to heaven he was known as Micheal. What i should have said was that to those in Heaven he is known as Micheal, but we continue to call him as Jesus.

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 458 by jaywill, posted 04-26-2010 10:39 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 460 by jaywill, posted 04-27-2010 1:03 PM Peg has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 496 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 460 of 492 (557653)
04-27-2010 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 459 by Peg
04-26-2010 7:54 PM


Yes. This is because Jehovah did not die. Only Jesus died.

It is extremely mysterious to me. And not to me only but to the New Testament writer who spoke of "the mystery of God, Christ" ( Col. 2:2)

Let's grant you for a moment that Jehoavah God did not die. I cannot think of a verse saying Jehovah God died. But look at the facts. The man who said that before Abraham came into being, He was the I AM, identical to Jehovah of Exodus 3.

That fact is not changed by you or I asserting that God never died.

Further, we may say "Jehovah never died". It does not change the fact that the Word who was God became flesh.

I don't think it is too dangerous to say that Jehovah died. We may say that. Or we may simply be silent about that and confess that Jesus died.

Regardless of what we feel in our conscience we can say, we do have to receive the life of God. And this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life of God. He who does not have the Son does not have the life of God (1 John 5:12)

To receive the life of God is to receive God Himself. Jehovah is a God who wants to impart Himself into man that man might live God, live through God, live out God, live unto God ... have God live through him.

Not only is Christ called the mystery of God. But Christ indwelling the believers is also the mystery (Col. 1:27).

There is something beyond 144,000 going to Heaven. And there is something beyond Jehovah setting up a great kingdom on the earth. There is the Triune God dispensing Himself into man as divine and eternal life that man may live God.


jaywill writes:
Where does it say Michael the angel died and rose for the redemption of sinners ?

Daniel was the prophet who spoke about the last days, yes? He mentioned that at that time, 'the time of the end', Micheal would stand up as a redeemer for the people of God

And you think that means that the angel Michael was crucified and resurrected for our salvation ?

"At that time Michael, the great prince who stands for the children of your people, will arise; and there will be a time of distress, such as never occurred since there came to be a nation until that time; and at that time your people, every one found written in the book, will be delivered." (Daniel 12:1)

Here is does say that the prince Michael will arise. And we do see the phrase "at that time" and "until that time". That time seems to be the time of the end of the age. We see in Daniel's book that the princes spoken of are angelic messengers.

How do you reason that at that time, the time of the end of the age, also means the time in which Jesus was born, lived, crucified, and resurrected ?

You also quoted your version:


Daniel 12:1-9 12 ¡§And during that time Mi¡¬cha¡Eel will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people. And there will certainly occur a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, every one who is found written down in the book... 9 And he went on to say: ¡§Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end..."

We also know that Jesus speaks about the 'time of the end' in Matthew and he tells us that, as the son of man, he will appear with great power and glory and rid the earth of Gods enemies

Matt 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

And revelation also tells us that Jesus is the one who appears
Rev 1:7 Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him

So Daniels prophecy ties in with these because it shows that in his heavenly position before he came to earth he was in fact the 'foremost' prince of heaven, the one who will bring an end to all mankinds woes....and we know him as Jesus christ.

Do you believe that the Spirit of God is the spirit of Michael the angel ?

Romans 8:9-11 talks about the indwelling Spirit of God and uses some names interchangeably:

"But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead becasue of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." (Romans 8 : 9-11)

This passage is not much about God establishing a physical kingdom on the earth. At least not directly is it about this.

It is about man RECEIVING God that God may indwell the saved man. God does this through the Spirit of God. And that incidently is the Spirit of Christ. And that incidently is the same Person as Christ Himself. And that incidently is the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead.

All are spoken of in terms of indwelling the Christian, living in the Christian, being imparted into the Christian.

Is Michael the archangel living in you ?

Is the Spirit of Michael the archangel living in you ?

Where else in the whole Bible are we told of the Spirit of Michael anyway? There are plenty of verses on the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Jesus, the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

This is a most malicious and pernicious deception that has obsessed you. The new covenant economy is Jesus Christ dwelling in the believers as the hope of glory:

"To whom God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you the hope of glory." ( Col. 1:27)

It is Christ in the believers that is the hope of expressing God in His glory - Christ in you the hope of glory. Jesus Christ is the life of God meant to be imparted into the saved that God may be lived out:

"When Christ our life is manifested, then you also will be manifested with Him in glory. ( Col. 3:4)

The New Testament is all about the indwelling of God. That is the indwelling of God in Christ and the dispensing of Christ as the Spirit into the saved that they may be born of God and live through an "organic" union with God.

Where does it say that God's plan is that Michael the angel would live in me ?


my point is that, before he came to earth, his heavenly name was Micheal. We on earth know him as Jesus and he identified himself to Paul as Jesus because it was Jesus that Paul knew.

Tragic deception.

I don't see us doing anything but going around in circles.

To the question of WHICH of the angels has God said "You are My Son" your answer is "to Michael". But this is against the whole spirit and tone of Hebrews 1:5. The point of the passage is undisputably that to NO ANGEL has God said what He has said of the man Jesus.

For to which of the angels has He ever said, "You are My Son; this day have I begotten You"? And again, " I will be a Father to Him, and He will be a Son to Me"? (Hebrews 1:5)

The point is that the Son of God is not an angel. There are only mentioned in the Bible the names of two angels - Gabriel and Michael. Perhaps the Latin Lucifer - "Daystar" is a third candidate for a biblical identifiable angel.

"To which of the angels?" is asked as a challenge to refute. The answer is that, to no angel, either to Gabriel or to Michael, or to any other angel was it pronounced that He was Son of God.

Do not make excuse that "sons of God" in Job were angels. That challenged of Hebrews 1:5 still invites the reply that NO ANGEL was designated as Son of God.

Your theology totally contradicts Hebrews 1:5. And your reply to the questions is "To Michael the angel. He is Jesus the Son of God."

These are the extremes you must go through to deny the incarnation of God.


We still know him as Jesus, but my point is simply that his heavenly name was always Micheal. It was Micheal when Daniel wrote about him as the Angel who would stand up in the last days....and even Jude acknowledges this when he says "the Lord will decend with an Archangels voice"

Around in circles.

This passage does not mean that the Lord's voice is that of an archangel.


your right, i made an error in saying that after his ascention to heaven he was known as Micheal. What i should have said was that to those in Heaven he is known as Micheal, but we continue to call him as Jesus.

How can you prove that those in heaven know Jesus as Michael ? Your Jehovah's Witness literature only teaches that. Point me to one single passage, or any passage proving that in heaven Jesus is called Michael.

On the contrary. In Heaven it is the name JESUS to which every knee will bow:

"That in the name of JESUS every knee should bow, of thoe WHO ARE IN HEAVEN and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue should openly confess that Jesus Christr is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:10)

It does not say that the tongues in Heaven confess Michael and the tongues on earth confess Jesus. It says that the universal confession of every tongue EVERYWHERE is to the name"Jesus."

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 459 by Peg, posted 04-26-2010 7:54 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 461 by Peg, posted 04-28-2010 4:10 AM jaywill has responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3485 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 461 of 492 (557815)
04-28-2010 4:10 AM
Reply to: Message 460 by jaywill
04-27-2010 1:03 PM


jaywill writes:

It is extremely mysterious to me. And not to me only but to the New Testament writer who spoke of "the mystery of God, Christ" ( Col. 2:2)

your bibles translation of this verse needs to be addressed.

My verse reads in full

Colossians 2:2 writes:

that their hearts may be comforted, that they may be harmoniously joined together in love and with a view to all the riches of the full assurance of [their] understanding, with a view to an accurate knowledge of the sacred secret of God, namely, Christ.

The 'sacred secret of God' was in fact the identity of the Messiah. It was called a sacred secret because the identity of the messiah was not known until Jesus appeared and all the prophecies about him were not fully understood until he made his appearance.

I've checked on some other translations of this verse and here they are:

New International Version: My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ,

New American Standard Bible: "that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ Himself,

English Standard Version: "that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, to reach all the riches of full assurance of understanding and the knowledge of God’s mystery, which is Christ,

As you can see, the above versions render this verse in the same way. It is saying that Christ is Gods mystery.

jaywill writes:

Let's grant you for a moment that Jehoavah God did not die. I cannot think of a verse saying Jehovah God died. But look at the facts. The man who said that before Abraham came into being, He was the I AM, identical to Jehovah of Exodus 3.

you may have missed my argument against this earlier, but the expressions were NOT identical.
The exodus expression not only used a different word, but also used the word as a title whereas when Jesus said it, it was said in the sense that he had existed before Abraham existed.

jaywill writes:

I don't think it is too dangerous to say that Jehovah died. We may say that. Or we may simply be silent about that and confess that Jesus died.

if that were true, then life is not dependent upon God and we could exist without him. I believe the scriptures tell us that by him we have life...without him we die. If God died for 3 days, then how did anyone survive?

jaywill writes:

How do you reason that at that time, the time of the end of the age, also means the time in which Jesus was born, lived, crucified, and resurrected ?


It doesnt mean the time Jesus lived...it means the time Jesus will return.
Daniels prophecy was to be put away until the 'last days'

In the last days is when this Great Prince will stand up in behalf of Gods people. The only one mentioned in the NT in the same context is Jesus. He promised he would return in the last days and at that time he would destroy Satan and all of Gods enemies.

Now tell my why Daniel calls this one, the Great Prince Micheal the Archangel who does this work?

jaywill writes:

It is about man RECEIVING God that God may indwell the saved man. God does this through the Spirit of God.

The New Testament is all about the indwelling of God. That is the indwelling of God in Christ and the dispensing of Christ as the Spirit into the saved that they may be born of God and live through an "organic" union with God.

Where does it say that God's plan is that Michael the angel would live in me ?

you talk alot about this 'indwelling' and it seems you take it literally, however, being in 'union' with God and Christ does not mean to have them living inside you literally. Its about being in unity with them. Living with the same purpose as them. Accepting their direction and bringing our conduct, way of life, thoughts and action into harmony with them.

The christians were also told to be in this same unity with each other at John 17:21 "in order THAT THEY MAY ALL BE ONE, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us"

The christians were not going to 'indwell' in each other were they?
Being 'one' with God and Christ not about having God and christ live inside you....its about you living in harmony with them just as the christians were to live in harmony with one another.

jaywill writes:

"To which of the angels?" is asked as a challenge to refute. The answer is that, to no angel, either to Gabriel or to Michael, or to any other angel was it pronounced that He was Son of God.

Do not make excuse that "sons of God" in Job were angels. That challenged of Hebrews 1:5 still invites the reply that NO ANGEL was designated as Son of God.

How can you aknowledge that Job speaks of the angels as being 'sons of God' but then deny that any angel was called a 'son of God' that is a contradiction. All spirit creatures, no matter what their rank is, are called 'angels'. This is because Angel means 'Messenger'

Do you deny that Jesus was a messenger? He was Gods annointed messenger and therefore he can rightly be called by the name 'angel'
I think you continue to refuse this fact because if you aknowledge that Jesus could have been an angel, then you have to accept that Jesus could not have been God.

But with regard to Hebrews 1:5, the verse before it shows that Jesus was 'elevated' to a position higher then the angels.

Vs 3 and after he had made a purification for our sins he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places. 4 So he has become better than the angels, to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs.

Now please explain why this fact would need to be mentioned if Jesus was always higher then the angels?

If he was God, he would not have 'inherited' a name 'better' then theirs because his name would have ALWAYS been better then theirs. And he would not have been compared in any way to the angels.

Really, what Paul is explaining is that Jesus was elevated above all the angels because of his sacrifice. Paul would not have needed to state this fact if he did not believe that Jesus was an angel.

jaywill writes:

This passage does not mean that the Lord's voice is that of an archangel.

Im sure you know the scripture that tells us that to Jesus "every knee must bend in heaven and on earth"
If Jesus is not the Archangel, then this statment is false because the angels in heaven are bending their knee to the 'Archangel' who is the Head or Chief angel...the one who is in charge.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 says Jesus will descending from heaven with “a commanding call” with an "Archangels" voice. Its only logical that he be described by a word that supports his authority. If we try to apply “archangel” to some other angel, and not Jesus himself, then Jesus position is brought into question because the Archangel means 'the Chief' or the 'first'

It cannot be anyone else but Jesus.

jaywill writes:

How can you prove that those in heaven know Jesus as Michael ? Your Jehovah's Witness literature only teaches that. Point me to one single passage, or any passage proving that in heaven Jesus is called Michael.

c'mon, Paul says in 1Thess that Jesus will decend from heaven with an Archangels voice. That should be clear enough for you.

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 460 by jaywill, posted 04-27-2010 1:03 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 462 by jaywill, posted 04-28-2010 7:30 AM Peg has responded
 Message 464 by jaywill, posted 04-28-2010 9:01 AM Peg has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 496 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 462 of 492 (557831)
04-28-2010 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 461 by Peg
04-28-2010 4:10 AM


I don't feel the need to further discuss Col. 2:2, firstly because your New World "translation" will not disclose the credentials and identities of the "translators". And secondly, because the English translations which you sited who do publish the credentials of their scholars were not much different from the what I quoted.

"The mystery of God, Christ." . And in the same book Christ is called the mystery (Col. 4:3).

Since the born child who is called Mighty God and the Son given who is called Eternal Father is also called [pehleh] - "Wonderful", to say He is the mystery is just another way of saying Christ is "Wonderful" - hard to comprehend, beyond one's powers, etc.

Since Jesus says no one knows the Son except the Father and no one knows the Father except the Son and whoever the Son reveals the Father to, it stands to reason that Christ is the mystery of God. And God is a mystery unless He is revealed to us by Christ.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by Peg, posted 04-28-2010 4:10 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 463 by Peg, posted 04-28-2010 8:04 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3485 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 463 of 492 (557835)
04-28-2010 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 462 by jaywill
04-28-2010 7:30 AM


jaywill writes:

Since Jesus says no one knows the Son except the Father and no one knows the Father except the Son and whoever the Son reveals the Father to, it stands to reason that Christ is the mystery of God. And God is a mystery unless He is revealed to us by Christ.

its good to see we agree on something

I thought you were saying that God is a mystery which is why you cant explain if he died or not....sorry if i misunderstood you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 462 by jaywill, posted 04-28-2010 7:30 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 496 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 464 of 492 (557845)
04-28-2010 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 461 by Peg
04-28-2010 4:10 AM


you may have missed my argument against this earlier, but the expressions were NOT identical.

I will not be going over John 8:58 because the large number of Bible scholars that agree that this was Jesus identifying Himself as Jehovah God in Exodus I find more persuasive then arguments to the contrary.


jaywill writes:
I don't think it is too dangerous to say that Jehovah died. We may say that. Or we may simply be silent about that and confess that Jesus died.

if that were true, then life is not dependent upon God and we could exist without him. I believe the scriptures tell us that by him we have life...without him we die. If God died for 3 days, then how did anyone survive?

Jehovah the Mighty God was also in the womb of a woman for 9 months being born as indicated by Isa. 9:6.

Christ is God incarnate. And Christ died and rose. That is the New Testament message.


jaywill writes:
How do you reason that at that time, the time of the end of the age, also means the time in which Jesus was born, lived, crucified, and resurrected ?

It doesnt mean the time Jesus lived...it means the time Jesus will return.

It means that Michael the prince will fight for Israel. Michael the angel was there in Daniel fighting for Israel in captivity by helpiong Daniel get messages from God. These messages were being resisted by the evil prinicipalities in the air, evil angels who have jurisdiction over nations. Michael has jurisdiction over the Israel nation.

That he stands up at the end times means that he will do much of the same that he is doing in the book of Daniel in standing against the spiritual advasaries in the heavenlies.

Nothing is said about Michael being born a man, living, dying, and resurrecting. Stating that an angel will stand up for his national jurisdiction does not prove that Jesus is the angel Michael or vica versa.


Daniels prophecy was to be put away until the 'last days'
In the last days is when this Great Prince will stand up in behalf of Gods people. The only one mentioned in the NT in the same context is Jesus. He promised he would return in the last days and at that time he would destroy Satan and all of Gods enemies.

The angels our the ministering servants of the redeemed Hebrews 1:14 - "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth for service for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation"

The angels are therefore the ministering and serving servants for the saints of God. In Revelation 12 when the corporate overcomers are raptured to the throne of God, the ministering angelic servants lead by Michael drive Satan down from the heavenly realms (Rev. 12:7).

As the saints of God overcome through Christ, the ministering servants are empowered to fight on their behalf. This is basic to spiritual warfare. The angelic ministering servants are limited in what they can do for the saints based upon the spiritual overcoming of the saints by their obedience to God.

In Joshua we saw the angelic hosts marching in the heavenlies against the evil angels in coordination with Joshua's army being one with and obedient to Jehovah.

Christ's army in Revelation consist of His saints who are human - Revelation 19. Michael and his angels are angelic spirits serving the human saints. This is basic to spiritual warfare.

You are confusing Michael in Revelation 12 with Jesus Christ. You have to concoct this confusion to deny that the Word who was God became flesh.

You actually are in rebellion against Jehovah.


Now tell my why Daniel calls this one, the Great Prince Micheal the Archangel who does this work?

I will spend more time to study this. However, the book of Daniel is unique among Bible books. In this book the viel is opened in heaven. And to a greater degree we on earth can see the angelic and spiritual warfare going on on behalf of God's people on earth. In Daniel the curtain is parted, the heavens are revealed and we see these angelic "princes" standing for various nations.

And two angels are mentioned in Daniel - Gabriel and Michael. I really do not like to get distracted from Christ the Son of God by having to elaborate about angels.

But for truths sake I will go back to review these matters. NO ANGEL should distract men from Jesus Christ. Paul warned of that in Colossians.

This does not mean that the saints do not need the angels. It means that the centrality of the Bible is the Son of God. And the Son of God is the Word who was with God and was God become flesh.

Eternal life is life beyond the typical limitations. It is not only endless in duration. It is powerful and extensive in quality. And the fact of the Triune God is evidence that the Bible is NOT the work of the human imagination. No one would ever invent such a puzzle and expect it to become a world religion.

It should be obvious to the reader of the Old Testament that sometimes the Angel of Jehovah and Jehovah Himself were spoken of in an interchangeable way. And in the New Testament the Logos Who was God became flesh.


jaywill writes:
It is about man RECEIVING God that God may indwell the saved man. God does this through the Spirit of God.

The New Testament is all about the indwelling of God. That is the indwelling of God in Christ and the dispensing of Christ as the Spirit into the saved that they may be born of God and live through an "organic" union with God.

Where does it say that God's plan is that Michael the angel would live in me ?

you talk alot about this 'indwelling' and it seems you take it literally,

Correction. The New Testament talks alot about the indwelling. You as a Jehovah's Witness IGNORE all those passages because all you see is an outward kingdom set up outside of man on the earth.

It is the New Testament that talks a lot about the indwelling of the Triune God. You are speaking as an outsider to whom the experience of the indwelling is perhaps foreign to you.

You are interested only in the objective kingdom as a political entity outside of man. Not that there is no physical kingdom. But there is quite a lot written about God dispensing His life and nature into man that man might LIVE through God.


however, being in 'union' with God and Christ does not mean to have them living inside you literally.

"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)

The regenerated man's spirit has become organically united with the Spirit who is the Lord. The two spirits mingle to be one spirit.

Space and time do not allow me to elaborate on this this morning. But Paul (not me) is emphatic that the true test of the believer is to realize that Jesus Christ is living in them:

"Test yourselves whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved ? ( 2 Cor. 13:7)

Perhaps you are disapproved and cannot understand WHY the New Testament speaks so much about the indwelling of Christ. It is no wonder, because you are distracted with making Christ an angel.


Its about being in unity with them. Living with the same purpose as them. Accepting their direction and bringing our conduct, way of life, thoughts and action into harmony with them.

I do not deny that unity and harmony are an issue. But the unity and harmony are brought about by the indwelling of God's life which He dispenses into the saved. They are born with that divine life and must learn to walk in it. It is a mingling of God with man.

Paul said that he longed for the saints in the inward parts of Christ Jesus. This means that his inward parts had been transformed, saturated and invaded by the Spirit of Jesus within him. Paul was being saturated with another life being dispensed into his inward parts.

"For God is my witness how I long for you all in the inward parts of Christ Jesus." (Phil. 1:8)

Paul's tender inward emotions, his bowls, so to speak, had become the inward parts of Christ Jesus. For Paul to live was Christ.

And Paul spoke of Christ being magnified in his body (Phil. 1:20). He furthermore spoke of the treasure of God's life in the earthen vessels of his humanity:

"But we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us." (2 Cor. 4:7).

God had dispensed the treasure of His divine life into the vessels of the apostles humanity. The excellency of the power to endure and manifest Christ was of this dispensed divine life. They only learned to absorb Christ, be saturated with Christ, and to live Christ. This Christ is the hope of glory in the saints.

Satan is distracting you from this dispensing of the Triune God into your human vessel by pre-occupying you with an outward political kingdom you are expecting and an angel called Michael.

The most dangerous lie is the lie which has some element of truth in it. Sure, there is a kingdom to be established. Sure, there is a couple of angels mentioned in the Bible. You are being led astray from the central lane of God's revelation by these distractions.


The christians were also told to be in this same unity with each other at John 17:21 "in order THAT THEY MAY ALL BE ONE, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us"

It means exactly what it says. The Christians being saturated with the Triune God is simultaneously their oneness with one another.

By virtue of the fact that the ONE Christ lives in them all they are PERFECTED (v. 23) into a oneness with one another. That is precisely why the indwelling of the Triune God is the structure of the church. And that is why Satan is fighting against the indwelling so much.

Notice that Jesus said that there must be a process of PERFECTING into this oneness as far as the saints are concerned:

"I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one, that the world may know that you have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me." (John 17:22,23)

This "perfecting" is not instantaneous. It is not accomplished by men being born again alone. It is accomplished by the new life saturating, filling, permeating those reborn with Him.

Thousands of us are in this process. Perhaps millions. The Lord knows. But Paul speaks of the climax of this perfecting in this way:

"Until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,

That we be no longer little children tossed by waves and carried about by very wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error." (Eph. 4:13,14)

The PERFECTING that Jesus prayed for and the Father MUST answer is also the maturing of the saints from little children to arrive at this oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge, knowlede not of objective doctrine, but of the living Person of the Son of God.

If you want to be in Jehovah's will then you must open up to the indwelling of the Triune God in Christ, for Him to dispense His life into the earthen vessel of your humanity.

That is why we are forgiven of our sins in Christ. That is that Christ the Person may make His home in our hearts through faith (Eph. 3:17)

The christians were not going to 'indwell' in each other were they?
Being 'one' with God and Christ not about having God and christ live inside you....its about you living in harmony with them just as the christians were to live in harmony with one another.

The Christians are saturated with Christ in this PERFECTING that Jesus petitioned about. And in virtue of this perfecting Christ becomes their ONE inner life in practicality. They become the habitation of God in spirit, built up into the temple of the living God.

This climax we have not yet arrived into. So I can not speak of full experience of it. And neither can you. You cannot deny what this means based on your rejection of the indwelling of the Spirit of Christ:

"That they all may be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us; that the world may beleive that you have sent Me... I in them, and You in Me, that they may be PERFECTED into one ..." (See John 17:21-23)

I can testify that many of us are in the process of being perfected. We are enjoying a foretaste of this perfecting. We are on the way. And we dare not reject the Lord's words based on the unbelief of some Jehovah's Witnesses who long to remain in the Old Testament dispensation.


jaywill writes:
"To which of the angels?" is asked as a challenge to refute. The answer is that, to no angel, either to Gabriel or to Michael, or to any other angel was it pronounced that He was Son of God.

Do not make excuse that "sons of God" in Job were angels. That challenged of Hebrews 1:5 still invites the reply that NO ANGEL was designated as Son of God.

Yes, Jesus is a messenger. Yes, in Revelation Jesus is sometimes symbolized as "Another Angel" .

Yes, in one sense Jesus is the sent Messenger. I agree with this. But Jesus Christ is not any angel in the sense of Gabriel or Michael. For Christ is God over all, blessed forever (Romans 9:5).

" ... Whose are the fathers, and out of whom, as regards what is according to flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen" (Rom. 5:9 RcV)

I do not like to endlessly repeat to the same person who is stubburn. But I believe I showed you before in the book of Zechariah how Jehovah of hosts is both the Sender and the One sent. Jehovah God, in that book sends Himself and is sent by Himself.

So also the Angel of Jehovah is often interchangeable with Jehovah. God is the Messenger and God is the Sending of the Messenger.


I think you continue to refuse this fact because if you aknowledge that Jesus could have been an angel, then you have to accept that Jesus could not have been God.

Quite the contrary. God sent God in the book of Zechariah.

And the Word Who was WITH GOD also WAS GOD. That Word (God) became flesh. This is the incarnation of the Mighty God as a born child. And this is the incorporation of the Eternal Father into the given Son of God. See Isaiah 9:6.


But with regard to Hebrews 1:5, the verse before it shows that Jesus was 'elevated' to a position higher then the angels.

Vs 3 and after he had made a purification for our sins he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places. 4 So he has become better than the angels, to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs.

Jesus the Son of God was sent by the Father. In that regard He certainly is the Messenger. But the Father did not leave Him when He was sent. Rather the Father lives in Him and He in the Father.

"While it was manifestly the Son who ministered on the earth as a man and spoke the words of eternal life to people (John 6:63, 68), the Father was in Him, doing His works, that is, operating to give the Son’s words their full effect among the hearers (cf. 8:26, 28; 12:49). In this sense, we understand the Son to be incorporating the Father and manifesting in His action a speaking that is not from Himself but from the Father who abides in Him. Likewise, the Spirit, we are told, when He comes, does not speak from Himself, but what He receives from the Son He declares to the believers, glorifying the Son and guiding the believers into all the reality of the Son (cf. John 14:6), who Himself receives all that the Father has as His own. In this sense, we understand the Spirit to be incorporating the Son to make the Son as the embodiment of the Father real to the believers.

Biblical Identifications
among the Three of the Divine Trinity

We believe that because the three of the Divine Trinity incorporate the operations of each other, the Bible sometimes identifies one of the three with another of the three. But far from confusing the distinctions among the three, these biblical identifications of the distinct hypostases of the Divine Trinity serve to reinforce the inseparability of the three in Their existence and operation. Further, these identifications rely on the oneness of essence in the Divine Trinity and on the coinherence and incorporation among the three of the Divine Trinity. The Bible unabashedly recognizes that when one acts, the others are identified with Him in operation, and it sometimes equates one of the three with another of the three."

Copied without permission from a Living Stream Ministry article.


Now please explain why this fact would need to be mentioned if Jesus was always higher then the angels?

Latter perhaps. That is all the time I have.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by Peg, posted 04-28-2010 4:10 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 465 by Peg, posted 04-28-2010 7:55 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3485 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 465 of 492 (557954)
04-28-2010 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 464 by jaywill
04-28-2010 9:01 AM


jaywill writes:

Jehovah the Mighty God was also in the womb of a woman for 9 months being born as indicated by Isa. 9:6.

there is no verse stating that Jehovah was in mary's womb for 9mths. You cannot make such a claim.

jaywill writes:

It means that Michael the prince will fight for Israel. Michael the angel was there in Daniel fighting for Israel in captivity by helpiong Daniel get messages from God.

So you beleive that the 'last days' and 'end times' had been and gone before jesus lived?

If thats the case, why did Jesus use Daniels prophecy in fortelling future events in his own time?

jaywill writes:

That he stands up at the end times means that he will do much of the same that he is doing in the book of Daniel in standing against the spiritual advasaries in the heavenlies.

You mean like Johns prophecy in Revelation 12:7, 8, where we read: “And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but it did not prevail.”

But didnt you just say that Daniels prophecy was already fulfilled in Daniels time?

The nature of a 'prophecy' is a future event...so John was speaking of this same prophecy about Micheal the great prince as a future event.

jaywill writes:

I do not deny that unity and harmony are an issue. But the unity and harmony are brought about by the indwelling of God's life which He dispenses into the saved. They are born with that divine life and must learn to walk in it. It is a mingling of God with man.

can you provide me a few of these scriptures that use this term 'indwelling' please. You are speaking a lot about it, but none of the verses you are providing actually use the term 'indwelling'....or have i missed them?

jaywill writes:

Yes, in one sense Jesus is the sent Messenger. I agree with this. But Jesus Christ is not any angel in the sense of Gabriel or Michael. For Christ is God over all, blessed forever (Romans 9:5).

What do you think these angels are? Are they not spirit sons of God?

Does God not call them his 'holy myriads'?

Are they not living in the same form as God himself?

They are spiritual beings with powers beyond anything we can imagine....why do you think christ is not liviing in the same form as them?

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by jaywill, posted 04-28-2010 9:01 AM jaywill has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 466 by Natural_Design, posted 04-29-2010 7:57 AM Peg has responded

  
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