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Author Topic:   Is Jesus God?
Natural_Design
Junior Member (Idle past 3340 days)
Posts: 12
From: Flint, Michigan, USA
Joined: 04-27-2010


Message 466 of 492 (557988)
04-29-2010 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 465 by Peg
04-28-2010 7:55 PM


I don't understand how someone could think that a Human Being is '' God '' -- this doesn't make any logical sense whatsoever. I guess that's the Bible for you though and how '' Christians '' interpret it.

Honestly, the first time I've heard of someone literally believing that Jesus is God was a couple days ago while watching a Christian TV Show. This guys said something along the lines of '' And Jesus is the creator of The Universe '' -- I couldn't help but shake my head in disbelief. How could a human being possibly have created the Universe ? It states in the Holy Quran that Allah created Jesus through immaculate conception. He was merely a Human Being put on this Earth to be a Messenger of Allah. Surely you don't believe that --not only did Jesus create himself-- but created the Universe and all that's within as well? How? How could a Human Being do this? It's impossible and makes no sense whatsoever. I suggest reading the Holy Quran then there will be no more misunderstanding anything about Allah ( God ) and Jesus ( Son )...

Here is a quote I found from The Holy Quran --

"
If Christians go back to Jesus, he Was but a man and servant of Allah: He came to still the jarring sects, Not to create a new one. He preached The One True God, his Lord. So give up Disputing, and join in devotion to Allah. That is the Way to the Garden of Bliss, But the opposite leads to the Fire. Beware! The Truth has come, and Allah knows how you Receive it. He is the Lord of power and mercy. The truth must prevail: resist it not.
"

There are many other quotes as well dealing with Jesus and how people put him up there with Allah which is just incorrect.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 465 by Peg, posted 04-28-2010 7:55 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 467 by Peg, posted 04-29-2010 6:04 PM Natural_Design has not yet responded
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3188 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 467 of 492 (558078)
04-29-2010 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by Natural_Design
04-29-2010 7:57 AM


nice to see your input Natural_Design

Just letting you know that not all christians believe Jesus is God. We believe him to be the son of God as he said he was.

Jehovah is the creator of the universe, Jesus is a created being...he was actually the 'firstborn' of all creation according to the Holy Bible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by Natural_Design, posted 04-29-2010 7:57 AM Natural_Design has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 200 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 468 of 492 (558217)
04-30-2010 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 466 by Natural_Design
04-29-2010 7:57 AM


I don't understand how someone could think that a Human Being is '' God '' -- this doesn't make any logical sense whatsoever. I guess that's the Bible for you though and how '' Christians '' interpret it.

This Jesus is available. That means we can meet Him and know Him. And because people all over the world, millions of them, can meet Him and know Him - at the same time, demonstrates that He is unusual.

A mere man can relate to one person at a time. But this available Lord and Savior Jesus can intimately relate to people all over the globe at the same moment, caring for their individual situation.

Because we have experienced this it is not difficult for us to accept the New Testament's claima about Jesus being God incarnate and the Son of God, the Son of Man.


Honestly, the first time I've heard of someone literally believing that Jesus is God was a couple days ago while watching a Christian TV Show.

Have you read through one or two of the Gospels for yourself ?
Have you ever set out to completely read the 21 chapters of the Gospel of John? You should try three chapters a day until you finish it. It doesn't take long at all.

Everyone should read the Gospel of John for themelves before they die. Or they should do so before Jesus comes again physically.


This guys said something along the lines of '' And Jesus is the creator of The Universe '' -- I couldn't help but shake my head in disbelief.

It is good to read the Bible for yourself to see what it is YOU believe from it.

Peg is a Jehovah's Witness. If you want to talk to someone who does not believe that Jesus is God, Peg is the person to talk to. But I don't think that the group Peg meets with encoureages people to read the Bible on their own.

I don't think they trust people to be able to read the Gospel of John on their own apart from Watchtower literature explaining it in their terms, that they will arrive at the truth.

I on the other hand heartedly encourage you not to just accept what I say about Jesus. Read through the Gospel of John and let the Spirit of God teach you directly, personally. And see what kind of impression you get about this Wonderful One Jesus Christ.


How could a human being possibly have created the Universe ?

The creation of the universe preceeded the birth of Jesus. But Jesus is the Man who was God incarnated. And God is from eternity. That, I think, is really what the spokesman was saying.

But, again, I encourage you to verify that I speak according to what the New Testament teaches. Do not just take my word for it. While you are participating in these discussions I hope you will read for yourself the Gospel of John.

I'll tell you what. When I here that a certain thing is in the Quran, I like to VERIFY it. I have one. And I do verify things people tell me are taught in the Quran.

I want to see if such a thing is REALLY there. I do not assume it is there. If I speak with a Moslem about something in the Quran, I want to know that I will not be embarressed when he or she points out that I am in error.

Then there is also the matter of interpretation. Read the New Testament for yourself.


It states in the Holy Quran that Allah created Jesus through immaculate conception. He was merely a Human Being

If you read the Gospel of John you will see what this "mere Human Being" said about Himself. Isn't it important to see what He said about Himself ?


put on this Earth to be a Messenger of Allah. Surely you don't believe that --not only did Jesus create himself-- but created the Universe and all that's within as well?

This is what the Bible says concerning this:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not one thing came into being which has come into being." (John 1:1-3)

The Word was God it says. Yet the Word was also with God, it says. So this is rather mysterious. But all things came into being through this Word which was God and with God.

This Word pre-exist the human birth of the man Jesus of Nazareth. But in verse 14 we are told "And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us ...." (John 1:14).

Let us interpret. Before the Word became flesh, all things that exist came into being THROUGH this living and eternal Word. Then after all things came into being, ie. the creation of the universe, the Word became flesh. This eternal Person put on human nature.

Does that seem a reasonable interpretation to you ?

Here is another passage showing all things coming into existence THROUGH this Wonderful Person even before He became a man:

" ... the Son, whom He [God] appointed Heir of all things, through whom also He made the universe;

Who [the Son and Heir] being the effulgence of His glory and the impress of His substance and upholding and bearing all things by the word of His power, having made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high." (Hebrews 1:2b-3)

Notice the similarity here with John 1:1,2,14. Through this Person God made the universe. The Word became flesh in John's gospel. And in the Hebrews passage He had blood to make purification of sins on His cross. Both passages say God processed the creation of the universe through this One before He was incarnated with flesh and blood and bones and a human nature.

A third witness to this teaching is Paul's letter to the Colossians - (Colossians 1:15-16)

" [Christ the Son] In whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins; Who [the Son] is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation, Because in Him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or lordships or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through Him and unto Him."

"Firstborn of all creation" here does not mean as the Jehovah's Witnesses take it. They teach that it means that the Son of God was the first item God CREATED before all other things.

You will have to decide for yourself. But I say that "Firstborn of all creation" in this passage means that WHEN the Word became flesh, and when the Son of God took on blood and human nature, He was the topmost and important preeminent item in all the universe. He was the Firstborn of all creation importance wise. All creation is through Him and FOR Him. So as an incarnated man He has preeminence among all the items created in the universe.

God became a man. And man is a CREATION of God - (Genesis 1:26,27). So we see in Jesus the eternal uncreated God as well as the created man. We see God and man united in one Person.

Flesh is no doubt an item of creation. Flesh has not always existed from eternity. Neither has human blood existed from all eternity. Only God has existed from all eternity.

So when God became a man in Jesus Christ ("the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us" (John 1:14) The Infinite God united with the Finite Humanity. God is here in Jesus. And Man is here in Jesus as well. And the two natures, Divine and Human, are comingled forever.

Here we see Jesus as the Eternal God saying that He died and rose and lives forever:

"And when I saw Him [Christ the Son of Man], I fell at His feet as dead; and He placved His right hand on me, saying, Do not fear;

I am the First and the Last and the living One; and I became dead, and behold, I am living forever and ever; and I have the keys of death and of Hades." (Revelation 1:17-18)

We can be certain here that Jesus is saying that He is GOd incarnate because God in the Old Testament, before the incarnation, before the birth of the man Jesus, said that He was the only God - the First and the Last:

"Thus says Jehovah the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts,

I am the First and I am the Last, And apart from Me there is no God." (Isaiah 44:6)

"Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, whom I called;

I am He; I am the First, I am also the Last.

Indeed, My hand laid the foundations of t he earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens;

When I call them, they stand together." (Isaiah 48:12,13)


How? How could a Human Being do this? It's impossible and makes no sense whatsoever. I suggest reading the Holy Quran then there will be no more misunderstanding anything about Allah ( God ) and Jesus ( Son )...

Here is a quote I found from The Holy Quran --
"
If Christians go back to Jesus, he Was but a man and servant of Allah:

You are going to find that you will have to choose to believe EITHER the Christian New Testament OR the Muslem Quran. For they oppose one another on this major point.

You, in this life, are going to have to decide WHICH one of these books you will believe on this one important point.

You have to read what Jesus said about HIMSELF. Now either He was insane or deceived or lying OR TELLING THE TRUTH.

Not only must you examine what Jesus said about Himself in the New Testament. You have to examine how Jesus lived and behaved. You have to ask whether or not His living backed up His claims about who He is.

Did He act like God become a man ?


He came to still the jarring sects, Not to create a new one. He preached The One True God, his Lord.

Okay. But what did His Father do in return ? He was raised from the dead and given the highest name above all names, not only in this age but also in the age to come. That man of whom it says "the Word became flesh" and who made "purification of sins", who died and lives again forever, has been exalted by the Father forever.

He served His Father and His Father exalted Him to the peak of all existence - Jesus Christ the Lord. To worship Him is to worship God. And to receive Him into our hearts is to receive God Himself into our hearts.


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 Message 466 by Natural_Design, posted 04-29-2010 7:57 AM Natural_Design has not yet responded

  
Zoinks
Junior Member (Idle past 3335 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 05-02-2010


Message 469 of 492 (558575)
05-02-2010 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 467 by Peg
04-29-2010 6:04 PM


In the begining was the word and the word was God!

The Word became flesh.

This hints that Jesus was there with God at the begining before creation.

So no, I don't belive he was created.

Also a reference in Genesis where it says that God's Spirit hovered across the Earth.

Basically before everything you had, God, Jesus, Holy Spirit. 3 parts but one being.

Remember...Water...Ice....Steam


This message is a reply to:
 Message 467 by Peg, posted 04-29-2010 6:04 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
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Zoinks
Junior Member (Idle past 3335 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 05-02-2010


Message 470 of 492 (558577)
05-02-2010 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by Natural_Design
04-29-2010 7:57 AM


Hi, Natural_Design

Allah and the God of the bible are NOT the same God.

God is God, God is JESUS, and God is the Holy Spirit.

3 seperate enterties ONE GOD


This message is a reply to:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3188 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 471 of 492 (558598)
05-02-2010 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 469 by Zoinks
05-02-2010 1:17 PM


Zoinks writes:

In the begining was the word and the word was God!

The Word became flesh.

This hints that Jesus was there with God at the begining before creation.

you should never read just a part of a scritpure and assume you've got it clear

"in the beginning was the word and the word was WITH God"

A writer would never use the word 'with' if he was only speaking about 1 individual.

The word was WITH God. So the word cannot BE God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by Zoinks, posted 05-02-2010 1:17 PM Zoinks has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 472 by Apothecus, posted 05-02-2010 8:37 PM Peg has responded
 Message 473 by Pauline, posted 05-03-2010 12:02 AM Peg has responded
 Message 474 by Zoinks, posted 05-03-2010 2:14 PM Peg has responded

    
Apothecus
Member (Idle past 669 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 472 of 492 (558600)
05-02-2010 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 471 by Peg
05-02-2010 7:26 PM


Question...
Hey Peg.

Just wondering if you left the next part of the verse out on purpose, or if it doesn't count somehow.

...and the Word was God.

I can see that these two parts somewhat contradict each other (...with God, or was God: which is it?) and I was curious as to what some of the bible buffs have to say about it.

Thanks, and have a good one.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by Peg, posted 05-02-2010 7:26 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
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Pauline
Member (Idle past 1994 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 473 of 492 (558606)
05-03-2010 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 471 by Peg
05-02-2010 7:26 PM


Peg writes:

The word was WITH God. So the word cannot BE God.

John 1:1 (New International Version)

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

So the Word cannot BE God?

Okay, forget that.

How about these claims of divinity Jesus made?

John 8:58 (New International Version)

58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

Lk 22: 66At daybreak the council of the elders of the people, both the chief priests and teachers of the law, met together, and Jesus was led before them. 67"If you are the Christ,[d]" they said, "tell us."

Jesus answered, "If I tell you, you will not believe me, 68and if I asked you, you would not answer. 69But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God."

70They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?"
He replied, "You are right in saying I am."

In light of systematic theology, which is assimilating what is true about specific topics in the Bible into one system of thought, John 1:1 at best is understood to directly reference to the Doctrine of Trinity. At worst, some people use it to make Jesus just a man...

The Word Trinity is never mentioned in the Bible, that is true. But so are a lot of other things we today believe. This doesn't mean that we totally disregard other verses JUST because John 1:1 might be interpreted by some with ambiguity...

Just thought I'd butt in.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by Peg, posted 05-02-2010 7:26 PM Peg has responded

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Zoinks
Junior Member (Idle past 3335 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 05-02-2010


Message 474 of 492 (558649)
05-03-2010 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 471 by Peg
05-02-2010 7:26 PM


Part of my spiritual gifting is that I am able to understand scripture.

That peice of scripture reffers to Jesus and god as seperate entities but the same.

Remember water is water, ice is water and steam is water. 3 different parts with diffient functions, but still WATER

This is how you understand the divinity of god.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by Peg, posted 05-02-2010 7:26 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 477 by Peg, posted 05-03-2010 8:47 PM Zoinks has responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 3188 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 475 of 492 (558684)
05-03-2010 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 472 by Apothecus
05-02-2010 8:37 PM


Re: Question...
Apothecus writes:

I can see that these two parts somewhat contradict each other (...with God, or was God: which is it?) and I was curious as to what some of the bible buffs have to say about it.

it has to do with the translation of the verse into english. We have had many discussion on this verse and I take the view of some translators who show that the word was 'divine' in nature, but not God himself. We say this because in John 1:1 the definite article (ho) is not used in front of theos when referring to the Son, the Word. It has to do with greek grammar as the following quote shows:

Many Witnesses, One Lord (1963), pages 23, 24 by William Barkley writes:

“Now normally, except for special reasons, Greek nouns always have the definite article in front of them, . . . When a Greek noun has not got the article in front of it, it becomes rather a description than an identification, and has the character of an adjective rather than of a noun. We can see exactly the same in English. If I say: ‘James is the man’, then I identify James with some definite man whom I have in mind; but, if I say: ‘James is man’, then I am simply describing James as human, and the word man has become a description and not an identification. If John had said ho theos ēn ho logos, using a definite article in front of both nouns, then he would definitely have identified the logos [the Word] with God, but because he has no definite article in front of theos it becomes a description, and more of an adjective than a noun. The translation then becomes, to put it rather clumsily, ‘The Word was in the same class as God, belonged to the same order of being as God’. . . . John is not here identifying the Word with God. To put it very simply, he does not say that Jesus was God.”


This message is a reply to:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3188 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 476 of 492 (558686)
05-03-2010 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 473 by Pauline
05-03-2010 12:02 AM


Dr.Sing writes:

John 8:58 (New International Version)

58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

this verse was looked at earlier on. I've pointed out the translation of "I AM' is not rendered this way by all translators.

modern translations of John 8:58 writes:


Moffatt: “I have existed before Abraham was born.”

Schonfield and An American Translation: “I existed before Abraham was born.”

Stage (German): “Before Abraham came to be, I was.”

Pfaefflin (German): “Before there was an Abraham, I was already there!”

George M. Lamsa, translating from the Syriac Peshitta “Before Abraham was born, I was.”

Dr. James Murdock, also translating from the Syriac Peshitto Version, says: “Before Abraham existed, I was.”

The Brazilian Sacred Bible published by the Catholic Bible Center of São Paulo says: “Before Abraham existed, I was existing.”

As you can see the above translators do not agree that Jesus was using the expression found in Exodus. The reason for that is because the words used are completely different. the I Am in exodus is a title and the word is Ehyéh
However, in John the expression is “I have been” which is made up of two Hebrew words, both a pronoun and a verb, aní hayíthi

So its not the same expression which is why some translators do not use 'I AM' in their translations.

Dr. Sing writes:

Lk 22: 66At daybreak the council of the elders of the people, both the chief priests and teachers of the law, met together, and Jesus was led before them. 67"If you are the Christ,[d]" they said, "tell us."

Jesus answered, "If I tell you, you will not believe me, 68and if I asked you, you would not answer. 69But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God."

70They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?"
He replied, "You are right in saying I am."

This passage shows that Jesus never claimed to be God. His claim was that he was the 'Christ' and the 'Son of God'. Not God himself.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3188 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 477 of 492 (558688)
05-03-2010 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 474 by Zoinks
05-03-2010 2:14 PM


Zoinks writes:

That peice of scripture reffers to Jesus and god as seperate entities but the same.

Remember water is water, ice is water and steam is water. 3 different parts with diffient functions, but still WATER

perhaps you can explain then why the holy spirit is not also mentioned in John 1:1. If the trinity is 3 in one, why is only Jesus mentioned along with God? Where is the holy spirit, the 3rd person of the trinity?


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Replies to this message:
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 Message 481 by Zoinks, posted 05-04-2010 2:52 PM Peg has responded

    
Apothecus
Member (Idle past 669 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 478 of 492 (558689)
05-03-2010 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 475 by Peg
05-03-2010 8:33 PM


Re: Question...
Interesting. Thanks for the insight, Peg.

Have a good one.


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Pauline
Member (Idle past 1994 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 479 of 492 (558773)
05-04-2010 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 476 by Peg
05-03-2010 8:45 PM


Peg writes:

As you can see the above translators do not agree that Jesus was using the expression found in Exodus. The reason for that is because the words used are completely different. the I Am in exodus is a title and the word is Ehyéh
However, in John the expression is “I have been” which is made up of two Hebrew words, both a pronoun and a verb, aní hayíthi

So its not the same expression which is why some translators do not use 'I AM' in their translations.

That wasn't the point.

My point was, Christ is claiming eternality, an attribute we ascribeonly to God. If He wants to be called eternal, then He wants to be called God. Before Abraham was born, I was already existing! --like one of the translation said.

Peg writes:

This passage shows that Jesus never claimed to be God. His claim was that he was the 'Christ' and the 'Son of God'. Not God himself.

Oh, good old JW argument.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ lived a sinless life?

Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 476 by Peg, posted 05-03-2010 8:45 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
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Pauline
Member (Idle past 1994 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 480 of 492 (558779)
05-04-2010 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 477 by Peg
05-03-2010 8:47 PM


Peg writes:

If the trinity is 3 in one, why is only Jesus mentioned along with God? Where is the holy spirit, the 3rd person of the trinity?

The Great Commission
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

If Jesus and the Holy Spirit were not equivalent in substance to God the Father, then that would be as ridiculous as saying "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Dr. Sing, and Peg. And Lo, Dr.Sing is with you till the end of this world."

Um, yeah, that's pretty lame and....disturbing. I mean, why equate two humans--me and you--with God! In the same way, why equate a human (Christ) and spirit with God Himself!.....

Well, analyze for yourself whether the Holy Spirit is God or not from the things He does...

Incarnation
• Luke 1:35
Inauguration of His ministry
• Matt 3:16
Teaching and miracle working
• Luke 4
Passion Discourse
• The Holy Spirit is going to empower you to do the work
Death and Resurrection
• Heb 9:14

Peg writes:

perhaps you can explain then why the holy spirit is not also mentioned in John 1:1.

I'll just give you my thoughts on that, if thats okay.

The Holy Spirit is not introduced until right before Christ's death on the cross. Sure, there are very few references to Him in the OT. But they leave us only with questions--as to who He is and what He does. Its not until this passage,

John 16: 12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. "

..that we know, "ohh...so thats who the Holy Spirit is and what He does!"

There is a right time for everything. Personally, I think that this was the perfect time to introduce the Holy Spirit, since He would "take the torch" from Christ so to speak.


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