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Author Topic:   Is Jesus God?
Zoinks
Junior Member (Idle past 3632 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 05-02-2010


Message 481 of 492 (558794)
05-04-2010 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 477 by Peg
05-03-2010 8:47 PM


There is a reference in Genesis with the creation account about God's spirit hovering over the earth or water? Don't have my bible to hand at this moment so can't check exact phrasing.

Once again this suggests that the spirt was also there along with the word before creation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 477 by Peg, posted 05-03-2010 8:47 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
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Zoinks
Junior Member (Idle past 3632 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 05-02-2010


Message 482 of 492 (558796)
05-04-2010 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 467 by Peg
04-29-2010 6:04 PM


Can I ask Peg are you a Jehovah's Witnesss beacuse with me trying not to sound rude your theology sometimes seems about as dodgy as the JW'S.

I only ask this beacuse they have a huge hung up on Jesus's Divinity as well as their crazy theology on blood.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 467 by Peg, posted 04-29-2010 6:04 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6026
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 483 of 492 (558797)
05-04-2010 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 482 by Zoinks
05-04-2010 3:05 PM


Can I ask Peg are you a Jehovah's Witnesss beacuse with me trying not to sound rude your theology sometimes seems about as dodgy as the JW'S.
I only ask this beacuse they have a huge hung up on Jesus's Divinity as well as their crazy theology on blood.

Nailed it on the first try. Good job, Zoinks


"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

This message is a reply to:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3485 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 484 of 492 (558829)
05-04-2010 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 479 by Pauline
05-04-2010 10:32 AM


Dr.Sing writes:

My point was, Christ is claiming eternality, an attribute we ascribeonly to God. If He wants to be called eternal, then He wants to be called God. Before Abraham was born, I was already existing! --like one of the translation said.

so was Satan the devil...so were the myriads of other angels who exist in the heavens with God

even Adam and Eve had the opportunity to exist forever.

However, Jesus did not exist before he was created. He is called the 'firstborn of Creation' for a reason.

Dr.Sing writes:

Do you believe that Jesus Christ lived a sinless life?

Yes of course he did. Just as Satan did before he became a sinner and just as Adam and Eve did before they became sinners.

And the angels in heaven are also sinless. So sinlessness does not make one God. It simply means they have not acted against Gods standards of right and wrong.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 479 by Pauline, posted 05-04-2010 10:32 AM Pauline has responded

Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3485 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 485 of 492 (558830)
05-04-2010 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 480 by Pauline
05-04-2010 11:26 AM


Dr.Sing writes:

If Jesus and the Holy Spirit were not equivalent in substance to God the Father, then that would be as ridiculous as saying "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Dr. Sing, and Peg. And Lo, Dr.Sing is with you till the end of this world."

but there is also a problem with the idea that jesus is equivalent with the holy spirit....here it is:

Matthew 12:31 writes:

“On this account I say to YOU, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. 32 For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come.

If jesus is equal to the holy spirit, why is blasphemy against one considered as far worse (unforgivable) while blashphemy against the other is forgivable? If they are equal, then blasphemy against both should be either unforgivable OR forgivable.

Unless, to sin against the holy spirit is to sin against someone greater then Jesus, the source of that spirit, God himself.


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Peg
Member (Idle past 3485 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 486 of 492 (558831)
05-04-2010 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 481 by Zoinks
05-04-2010 2:52 PM


Zoinks writes:

There is a reference in Genesis with the creation account about God's spirit hovering over the earth or water? Don't have my bible to hand at this moment so can't check exact phrasing.

Once again this suggests that the spirt was also there along with the word before creation.

Yes, in genesis 1 we read about Gods spirit working over the surface of the waters of the earth. But this has not bearing on why John does not mention the '3rd person of the trinity'.

Apparently they are inseperable.

Do you think the spirit is a person?


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Peg
Member (Idle past 3485 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 487 of 492 (558833)
05-04-2010 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 482 by Zoinks
05-04-2010 3:05 PM


we are not hung up on jesus divinity.... we do acknowlege his divine nature and his position, but we do not view him as the Almighty Jehovah.

He is called the 'only begotten son' and he is also called the 'firstborn of all creation'

so the scriptures indicate that he had a beginning, whereas the hebrew God Jehovah did not.


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Pauline
Member (Idle past 2291 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 488 of 492 (558877)
05-05-2010 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 484 by Peg
05-04-2010 8:11 PM


so was Satan the devil...so were the myriads of other angels who exist in the heavens with God

even Adam and Eve had the opportunity to exist forever.

Dearest of dears, eternality is different from immortality. I'm sure you know that, I'm just reminding you. Being eternal means you have no beginning and no end. Being immortal means you have a beginning and no end.

Satan had a beginning. Adam did. Eve did.

Just as Satan did before he became a sinner and just as Adam and Eve did before they became sinners.

Are you awake Peg?

So if Adam, Eve, and Satan sinned at SOME POINT in their lifetime, how can they have lived sinless lives?? I mean, ?????????


This message is a reply to:
 Message 484 by Peg, posted 05-04-2010 8:11 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 489 by Peg, posted 05-05-2010 7:50 PM Pauline has responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3485 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 489 of 492 (558967)
05-05-2010 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 488 by Pauline
05-05-2010 10:49 AM


Dr.Sing writes:

Dearest of dears, eternality is different from immortality. I'm sure you know that, I'm just reminding you. Being eternal means you have no beginning and no end. Being immortal means you have a beginning and no end.

Im aware of what immortal means. The Greek word is athanasia and means “deathlessness”

If you take into consdideration that jesus died, you'd have to agree that when he was here, he was not immortal because obviously he COULD die. Whereas, If he was 'immortal/deathless' then he certainly could not have been put to death. Immortality means 'unable to die' Jesus certainly could die.

Dr.Sing writes:

Satan had a beginning. Adam did. Eve did.

Yes they did...and so did Jesus according to John and Paul

Colossian 1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN of all creation"

Revelation 3:14  “And to the angel of the congregation in La‧o‧di‧ce′a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION by God"

And there is a prophetic passage in Proverbs 8 that describes the one who God/Jehovah created before all other things

Provers 8:22 “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. ... 27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; ...30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31 being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.

Jesus had a beginning, therefore he is not eternal. I agree that he is now immortal, but he certainly wasnt immortal when he was on earth.

Dr.Sing writes:

o if Adam, Eve, and Satan sinned at SOME POINT in their lifetime, how can they have lived sinless lives?? I mean, ?????????

sin is only an action. You cant be accused of being a sinner until you have actually sinned.

Just as a Doctor is not a Doctor until AFTER he has completed his training and successfully obtained his degree. From then on he's a doctor, but until that time, he is not considered a doctor. And so it is with Adam, Eve and Satan...they were born sinless and at some point in their existence they chose to disobey. From that point on they were sinners.

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 488 by Pauline, posted 05-05-2010 10:49 AM Pauline has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 490 by Pauline, posted 05-11-2010 9:51 PM Peg has responded

  
Pauline
Member (Idle past 2291 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 490 of 492 (559867)
05-11-2010 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 489 by Peg
05-05-2010 7:50 PM


All quotes by Peg

Colossian 1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN of all creation"

Did you know that some translations have the rendering, "the firstborn over all creation?

Do you know the difference it makes?

By now, do you know that for you to base you argument for Jesus' non-deity on this phrase--is invalid?

Revelation 3:14 “And to the angel of the congregation in La‧o‧di‧ce′a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION by God"

Same goes for this verse. Some translations have "...true witness, the ruler of God's creation"

And there is a prophetic passage in Proverbs 8 that describes the one who God/Jehovah created before all other things

Provers 8:22 “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. ... 27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; ...30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31 being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.

Look at this, Peg.

Proverbs 8:22 (New International Version)

22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, [a] , [b]
before his deeds of old;

Footnotes:

1. Proverbs 8:22 Or way ; or dominion
2. Proverbs 8:22 Or The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work ; or The LORD brought me forth at the beginning of his work

First of all,

1) Why are you identifying wisdom with Jesus?
2) How do you explain footnote 2?

sin is only an action. You cant be accused of being a sinner until you have actually sinned.

That's.......obvious.

So, no man other than Jesus Christ lived a sinless life, agree?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 489 by Peg, posted 05-05-2010 7:50 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3485 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 491 of 492 (560301)
05-14-2010 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 490 by Pauline
05-11-2010 9:51 PM


DrSing writes:

Did you know that some translations have the rendering, "the firstborn over all creation?

Do you know the difference it makes?

By now, do you know that for you to base you argument for Jesus' non-deity on this phrase--is invalid?

by your own definition of 'eternal', it is impossible to be 'eternal' and be a 'firstborn' at the same time.

A firstborn has a start, a beginning... an immortal such as God, does not.

Dr.Sing writes:

Same goes for this verse. Some translations have "...true witness, the ruler of God's creation"

the greek word from the interlinear means 'origin'

the interlinear renders the verse 'the ORIGIN of the creation of God' and the ESV, NASB, AKJV, KJ, ASV, DRB, DBT, ERV, WBT, NWT all translate it as 'the beginning of the creation of God'

I've heard many people claim that Proverbs 8 is speaking about wisdom....yet this implies that God was at one time without his wisdom until he created it.

Its tantamount to saying that he did not always possess wisdom. Yet the bible shows that God IS wisdom. So that really does not make much sense to me.

Dr.Sing writes:

So, no man other than Jesus Christ lived a sinless life, agree?

No, Adam was sinless before he sinned.

And the Apostle Paul even likened Jesus to Adam in 1Corinthians 15:45 when he says " It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit

So Jesus was likened to Adam because Adam was the only other perfect man to have ever lived. This is why the Paul also stated in 1 Timothy 2:5-6 that Jesus was a 'corresponding ransom' because Jesus perfect life corresponded to the perfect life that Adam lost by his sin.

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 1551 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 492 of 492 (564261)
06-09-2010 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 485 by Peg
05-04-2010 8:23 PM


Jesus is Lord God, Hallelujah!
Peg writes:

but there is also a problem with the idea that jesus is equivalent with the holy spirit....here it is:

Matthew 12:31 writes:

“On this account I say to YOU, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. 32 For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come.

Peg writes:

If jesus is equal to the holy spirit, why is blasphemy against one considered as far worse (unforgivable) while blashphemy against the other is forgivable? If they are equal, then blasphemy against both should be either unforgivable OR forgivable.

Unless, to sin against the holy spirit is to sin against someone greater then Jesus, the source of that spirit, God himself.


It is a contrast between slandering "the Son of man" in His veiled condition and unfinished work--which might be done "ignorantly, in unbelief" ( 1 Timothy 1:13 ), and slandering the same blessed Person after the blaze of glory which the Holy Ghost was soon to throw around His claims, and in the full knowledge of all that. This would be to slander Him with eyes open, or to do it "presumptuously." To blaspheme Christ in the former condition--when even the apostles stumbled at many things--left them still open to conviction on fuller light: but to blaspheme Him in the latter condition would be to hate the light the clearer it became, and resolutely to shut it out; which, of course, precludes salvation.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/...wn/matthew/matthew-12.html

This JW's have done since the inception of this cult, precluding their salvation.

It's as simple and as difficult as that!

PS - I may not start too many topics at this forum, but I seem to have a gift for finishing topics that unbelievers start.

Edited by John 10:10, : Added PS


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