Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 81 (8950 total)
40 online now:
DrJones*, Faith, Percy (Admin) (3 members, 37 visitors)
Newest Member: Mikee
Post Volume: Total: 867,364 Year: 22,400/19,786 Month: 963/1,834 Week: 33/430 Day: 33/63 Hour: 1/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   WooHoo! More idiots running the gub'ment.
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6898
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 29 of 245 (548765)
03-01-2010 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Hyroglyphx
03-01-2010 5:28 AM


WTF?
it pales in comparison to the numbers murdered by despots seeking a religion-free utopian society in the last 100 years alone.

Please explain your understanding of the Soviet regime under Stalin and the Communist regime under Mao.

These guys were totalitarian thugs, they were not attempting to make a utopian society. Unless maybe they thought that their ideal for them was a utopia. They were not specifically seeking a religion-free society. They were trying to eliminate any other potential rivals. That religion was one of their potential rivals does mean that they were more against it than anything else. They destroyed any organizations not controlled by themselves. For example, trade unions, independent media, independent universities.

You make it sound like their main motive was destroying religion. Not anywhere close. Read some history on the subjects.

BTW, I sure hope you were trying to include Hitler in you list.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-01-2010 5:28 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-02-2010 10:34 AM Theodoric has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6898
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 63 of 245 (548835)
03-02-2010 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Buzsaw
03-02-2010 12:35 AM


Obama radical?
Hey, if a radical Obama can get elected

Please show how in your warped mind he is a radical.

because he is black? Because is father was raised a moslem?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Buzsaw, posted 03-02-2010 12:35 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6898
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 64 of 245 (548836)
03-02-2010 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Buzsaw
03-02-2010 12:44 AM


Re: Communist Religious Persecution
So what do you think of schools having islamic or buddhist prayers. How about if teachers lead the kids in hindu devotiosn? Is that ok?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Buzsaw, posted 03-02-2010 12:44 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Buzsaw, posted 03-02-2010 1:00 AM Theodoric has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6898
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 69 of 245 (548842)
03-02-2010 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Buzsaw
03-02-2010 1:00 AM


Re: Communist Religious Persecution
Sorry been away a while. Not caught up and I am sure you cant be bothered to answer a simple question.
Oh well I expect nothing more from you


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Buzsaw, posted 03-02-2010 1:00 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6898
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 95 of 245 (548899)
03-02-2010 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Buzsaw
03-02-2010 10:29 AM


Re: What Use To Be
It was in the 1960s when Jews marched into the old walled city of Jerusalem and out marched the gentiles

Please explain what you mean by this? There was a mass exodus of christians from jerusalem after the 1967 war?

I have been to the old city. There is a pretty vibrant christian population and presence there. Also, a strong islamic and jewish presence. I am not being pro or con Israle here. I just want to know what the hell you are talking about. Or at least what you think you are talking about.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Buzsaw, posted 03-02-2010 10:29 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Buzsaw, posted 03-02-2010 12:43 PM Theodoric has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6898
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 100 of 245 (548910)
03-02-2010 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Hyroglyphx
03-02-2010 11:13 AM


Your premise is flawed
Anti-religious does not equate to atheism. As shown by Stalin and the French Revolution, as two examples. For both I will grant they were anti-established religion, but it is very difficult to equate that to atheism.

Also, your logic fails here. Atheism itself isn't a principle, cause, philosophy, or belief system which people fight, die, or kill for. Being killed by an atheist is no more being killed in the name of atheism than being killed by a tall person is being killed in the name of tallness.

This is an interesting way for an atheist state that is trying to eliminate all religions to act.

Although all religions were persecuted[31], the regime's efforts to eradicate religion, however, varied over the years with respect to particular religions, and were affected by higher state interests. Official policies and practices not only varied with time but also in their application from one nationality and one religion to another. Although all Soviet leaders had the same long-range goal of developing a cohesive Soviet people, they pursued different policies to achieve it. For the Soviet regime, the questions of nationality and religion were always closely linked. Not surprisingly, therefore, the attitude toward religion also varied from a total ban on some religions to official support of others.

Source


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-02-2010 11:13 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Buzsaw, posted 03-02-2010 1:07 PM Theodoric has not yet responded
 Message 128 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-06-2010 12:23 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6898
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 103 of 245 (548913)
03-02-2010 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Buzsaw
03-02-2010 12:43 PM


Re: What Use To Be
Why didn't you use the term moslem or arabic? Why gentile? Some sort of antisemitic thing? No one uses the word gentile except Jews and anti-semitics. Oh and Mormons.

This is a wingnut dog whistle word. The average person thinks of christian when hearing gentile. Some dictionaries even define as

a person who is not Jewish, esp. a Christian.

Random House 2010

Remember gentile also means non-Mormon to Mormons. So your word is a very very poor choice. But it definitely was a dog whistle.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Buzsaw, posted 03-02-2010 12:43 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6898
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 111 of 245 (548930)
03-02-2010 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Hyroglyphx
03-02-2010 10:34 AM


Re: WTF?
BTW, I sure hope you were trying to include Hitler in you list.

Absolutely Hitler is included.

Typo on my part. I meant I sure hope you were not including Hitler. He was not an atheist and it has been shown conclusively on this forum and elsewhere that he had strong religious motivations.

You assume that must have been what I meant when all I stated was that anti-religious factions have persecuted religion in the same manner that religion has persecuted anyone outside of its sphere of influence.

The problem is your equating anti-religious with atheism. they are not equivocal. They has been a lot of anti-religious actions that have been religiously motivated. For example, as has been shown numerous times here that Stalin, Mao and Kim Il Sung were setting up state religions. This does not make the atheists. Just because a religion is not christian or moslem or hindu or any of the well known religions does not make it atheism.

Atheism has no belief set. Setting yourself up to be worshiped is not the sign of an atheist.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-02-2010 10:34 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6898
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 118 of 245 (548952)
03-02-2010 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Buzsaw
03-02-2010 6:02 PM


Re: Establishment Of Athiesm
You, the athiest are asking me? You are the one who ascribes to their alleged values. That is, athiesm must have values which entice you.

Buz you are the one claiming there are some core Atheist values. The atheists are saying there are not. You are making the claim. Back it up or shut up.

I would suppose one of them would be that athiesm makes you think that you' re not answerable to a higher power and no matter what you do, good or bad, will have no eternal consequenses.

Do you even know what values are?

How is this for a good working definition.

the ideals, customs, institutions, etc., of a society toward which the people of the group have an affective regard. These values may be positive, as cleanliness, freedom, or education, or negative, as cruelty, crime, or blasphemy.

How is what you stated a value?

I didn't realize us atheists had customs and institutions. Could you fill me on what those are?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Buzsaw, posted 03-02-2010 6:02 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Buzsaw, posted 03-02-2010 7:43 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6898
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 122 of 245 (548964)
03-02-2010 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Buzsaw
03-02-2010 6:02 PM


Lets talk values
Do you want to know my values. I am an atheist, probably as hard core as they come. Let me tell you about me and you can tell me all about my terrible atheist values.

I have been married 5 years. Yes it is my second marriage. I have been faithful to both of my wives. The idea of cheating never has been a serious thought.

I have a 27 year old adopted son, that my ex and I adopted when he as 12. He lived in a childrens home that my worked at. He is mentally impaired and currently lives in a group home. This is not meant religiously but he is a huge part of my heart and soul.

My wife and I are currently doing respite foster care.

I am not employed(wife has great job), but I volunteer 4 days a week at the local public school.

We give generously to needy causes; Red Cross, local organizations and Lambano Sanctuary in South Africa.

So don't sneer at me about your idea about atheist values. You are a self-righteous ass. You know nothing about me and my values or any other atheist. So why don't you just shut the fuck up, before you imply anyone here is immoral or evil.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Buzsaw, posted 03-02-2010 6:02 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Buzsaw, posted 03-08-2010 10:40 PM Theodoric has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6898
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 213 of 245 (550287)
03-14-2010 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Buzsaw
03-08-2010 10:40 PM


What are the atheist values?
You brought up atheist values, but you have yet to give us one atheist value.

I brought up my values to show that atheist values are no different than most anyone else's values.

Please show us they horrendous atheist values.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Buzsaw, posted 03-08-2010 10:40 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6898
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 214 of 245 (550288)
03-14-2010 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Buzsaw
03-08-2010 11:04 PM


Athiestic Values Whatt????
You have, in fact, implied one of athiesm's values, Huntard, which is that they don't believe in the Biblical god.

How is this a value?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Buzsaw, posted 03-08-2010 11:04 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6898
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 229 of 245 (550819)
03-18-2010 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Rahvin
03-18-2010 1:45 PM


I would venture to say that have not been any communist States. All there have been are totalitarian States in the guise of communism.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Rahvin, posted 03-18-2010 1:45 PM Rahvin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Rahvin, posted 03-18-2010 1:58 PM Theodoric has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6898
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 231 of 245 (550822)
03-18-2010 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by Rahvin
03-18-2010 1:58 PM


Not at all a No True Scotsman fallacy.

Here is a a definition of that fallacy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

I would have to be a communist in order for this to be that fallacy and also I would have to be making an unfounded comment.

My comment is based upon historical and political accuracy.
If there was any hint of communism in the USSR it was in the very early days.

Here is a qucik definition of communism

quote:
Communism is a social structure in which classes are abolished and property is commonly controlled, as well as a political philosophy and social movement that advocates and aims to create such a society.

quote:
The revolutionary socialists now broke completely with the moderate majority of the movement, withdrew from the Second International , and formed (1919) the Third International, or Comintern , in 1919. Henceforth, the term Communism was applied to the ideology of the parties founded under the aegis of the Comintern. Their program called for the uniting of all the workers of the world for the coming world revolution, which would be followed by the establishment of a dictatorship of the proletariat and state socialism. Ultimately there would develop a harmonious classless society, and the state would wither away.

Source

All supposed communist states have gotten stuck in the dictatorship part. They never even transitioned to the dictatorship of the proletariat, which is an integral part of Marxist theory.
Dictatorship of the proletariat

quote:
Marx's dictatorship of proletariat is revolutionary government with majority (proletarian) support which wield absolute power to replace the incumbent capitalist economic system and its socio-political supports, i.e. the “dictatorship of the bourgeoisie"

The communist states just modified the classes. The party became the penultimate class. Support for m the proletariat was not needed and the proletariat was harshly suppressed. Communist states then became more akin to a Theocracy than any other. This is shown by the cult of personality for Stalin, Mao, Castro, and whoever the latest nut job is in North Korea. This was continued by the party leaders in both USSR and China.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Rahvin, posted 03-18-2010 1:58 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by onifre, posted 03-18-2010 4:23 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6898
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 240 of 245 (560829)
05-17-2010 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by nwr
05-17-2010 8:41 PM


Re: The Mindless Middle
I won't further elaborate, nor provide references, for if I do then Straggler will only accuse me of namedropping.

But like many threads you participate in, unless you tell us we won't have a clue what you mean.

How about a little elaboration or references so that we know what you mean. Debating with you is like trying to nail down gelatin.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by nwr, posted 05-17-2010 8:41 PM nwr has acknowledged this reply

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019