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Author Topic:   WooHoo! More idiots running the gub'ment.
dwise1
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Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 179 of 245 (549763)
03-10-2010 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Rahvin
03-10-2010 12:36 PM


Re: Athiestic Values
The truth is, Buz, the values held by atheists differ wildly. There is no central philosophy that ties us all together like there is with a given religious sect. We have no 10 Commandments. We don't even have 10 Suggestions.
Though a First Commandment was suggest by Orson Scott Card in his classic Secular Humanist Revival Meeting:
quote:
Thou Shalt THINK!
Something which is apparently anathema in most religions. And obviously in Buz'.

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dwise1
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Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 186 of 245 (549791)
03-10-2010 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Buzsaw
03-09-2010 11:40 PM


Re: Athiestic Values
I would assume that being such, there must be some unique values relative to atheism which cause them to be atheist.
Actually, there are many things that can cause someone to become an atheist, nearly as many causes as there are atheists. You should visit an ex-Christian forum, such as No webpage found at provided URL: http://ex-christian.net/, some time to learn what some of them are. Read their stories. However, if you join the forum I would advise you to not try to "save" them; they have had a lot of experience with many such jerks and certainly know how to deal with them effectively. For that matter, since they had been where you are now but now have seen the light, they will most likely try to save you. So while visiting there, you need to practice the Pharisee teaching of not doing to others that which is displeasing to yourself (Rabbi Hillel, c. 20 BCE).
Barring some ex-Christians, most atheists have no desire to convert others. Some other values that I have noticed in many atheists are being realistic, honesty, truthfulness, and a desire to seek truth and knowledge. If you wish to consider those traits to be unique to atheism, then so be it -- my experience has indicated to me that they are certainly lacking in fundamentalist Christianity, especially in those under the thrall of "creation science."
Human cultures throughout the history of mankind have had a religious bent. Atheists must have a reason to value their atheism.
Because the quality of life is so much better as an atheist.
Perhaps a couple analogies would help. Drinking and smoking. Giving them up or not indulging is akin to atheism. Let's start with smoking. Why abstain from smoking? Because it's healthier? Yes, that would be a reason, but the real reason is that life without smoking is better. I had tried to pick up the habit in college to relieve stress, but it only made things worse so I gave up trying. From ex-smokers, I understand that besides being able to build up your wind and ability to breathe and not needing to cough your lungs out in the morning (I lived in a company house in Germany where I was the only non-smoker and the sound of that coughing was what I woke up to every morning), you can also finally smell things that you couldn't before. And you can also finally taste your food. You're no longer being blocked from enjoying the world because of smoking. And why abstain from drinking, especially in excess? Again, the quality of life is better. Comparatively speaking, you can wake up in the morning feeling somewhat rested, your head is clear, your IG tract is not in distress; my own problem drinking had been getting out-of-control, so I put a stop to it and I have personally experienced the benefits.
As an example that this analogy works, consider the case of a friend from church, Gary. For many years, he had been a hard-core fundamentalist. Of course he would constantly encounter every-day facts of life that contradicted his beliefs, so he had to practice self-deception and blind himself to the truth. The problem with that is that you have to keep piling on more and more self-deception. Finally, the self-deception just became too overwhelming, so he decided to apply the Matthew 7:20 test to Christianity. OK, some of the fruits were good, but a lot of the fruits of Christianity were bad -- remember now, Jesus set up that test so that even one wicked fruit would condemn the tree to being hacked down and thrown into the fire. So he dumped Christianity and became, as he put it, "an atheist and a thorough humanist." And as such he became not only much happier, but also much more spiritually fulfilled. The only thing he missed was the practice of expressing gratitude to a supreme being (much as an ex-smoker might miss certain situations for lighting up), but that was a very small price to pay for the vast improvement in his quality of life and the quality of his state of mind.
Another thing to look at is why an atheist would ever want to convert to Christianity, especially to your brand. I know that for me the very idea is morally repugnant. In order for me to convert, especially to a sect that embraces "creation science", I would need to embrace something that I know is a pack of lies and deception. I would need to abandon morality and become a willing and willful accomplice to that lying and deceiving.
Why would anyone with even a shred of morality choose to do such a thing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Buzsaw, posted 03-09-2010 11:40 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 207 of 245 (550117)
03-12-2010 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Taz
03-12-2010 7:15 PM


Re: Texas Rewrites History
Aren't these christians ashamed of what they are doing, rewriting history like this? I mean... what the hell happened to thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor?
This is one of those values differences between atheists and Christians that Buz is seeking:
Atheists actually do care about the truth, whereas Christians only give it lip service and will zealously violating it when it they believe it would serve their god -- or even just for the helluvit.
Edited by dwise1, : had left out conjunctive

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 216 of 245 (550594)
03-16-2010 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Buzsaw
03-08-2010 10:40 PM


Re: Lets talk values
This might help compare Christian values with non-Christian values. While the non-Christian values are not exclusively atheists' values (ie, non-atheist non-Christians also share them), they are quite different from Christian values.
A couple years ago, I had stumbled across this documentary film's site: No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.divorcinggod.org. The film examined the conflicts between evangelicals' Biblical beliefs and the harsh realities of divorce; this is a particularly important subject since evangelicals have a divorce rate much higher than the general public. The site used to also have personal stories by people who had themselves gone through that experience, but they're no longer there. I did save a poem while it was still up, which I'm reposting here since it contrasts several Christian and non-Christian values:
quote:
Defining Friendship
When I left my husband, my Christian friends gossiped and judged.
My non-Christian friends loved and accepted.
My Christian friends said things like, We have the right to know why you’re doing this.
You are taking advantage of God’s grace.
I love you but I don’t agree with you.
You will loose everything you ever worked for.
I’m sorry that you gave up your place in eternity for this.
My non-Christian friends said I’m here for you no matter what.
My Christian friends forwarded emails about my personal business.
My non-Christian friends asked me about my personal business.
My Christian friends said This is not OK.
My non-Christian friends said Are you OK?
My Christian friends left me out of their weddings and parties.
My non-Christian friends let me into their homes and lives.
My Christian friends need to surround themselves with other people just like them to justify their own insecurities.
My non-Christian friends value people different than them because they have room in their mind to learn from others.
My Christian friends think they know all the answers.
My non-Christian friends know we don’t have the answers.
My Christian friends called me ‘selfish.’
My non-Christian friends called me ‘honest.’
My Christian friends want everyone to like them.
My non-Christian friends want to like themselves.
My Christian friends are scared it could happen in their own marriage.
My non-Christian friends are secure with their spouses because they did not choose them based on spiritual delusion.
My Christian friends were unhappy for themselves.
My non-Christian friends were happy for me.
My Christian friends haven’t called me once since the divorce.
My non-Christian friends won’t leave me alone.
God forgive me if I’ve ever been a Christian friend.

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Replies to this message:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 218 of 245 (550615)
03-16-2010 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Taz
03-16-2010 6:10 PM


Re: Lets talk values
And I've also heard it reported that the group with the lowest divorce rate is ... atheists. Though I cannot cite the source of that report.
So why do the evangelicals, conservatives, and anti-gays suffer the highest divorce rates? I would be inclined to attribute it to their not caring about other people, putting ideology above people. My friend, who takes a far dimmer view of the Right than I do, might attribute it to their heavy and virtually sole dependence on fear. But, compelling as those answers may be, we may both be missing the true reason.
Rick Warren's Saddleback Church is practically in my back yard (ie, we're both in the same county). They have a very large singles ministry, about 15,000 strong, with a large contingency of middle-aged divorcs, a number of them being friends and acquaintences of mine. At a party, one of them told me about having read some of Dr. Neil Clark Warren's books in which Dr. Warren also described the statistics of evangelical Christians having a much higher divorce rate than the general population and cited that as his reason for creating eHarmony.com. Dr. Warren's explanation for their higher divorce rate was that evangelicals rush into marriage too young, too quickly, and far too often to the wrong person. One reason given for such rash behavior (I forget whether by Dr. Warren or by someone else) is that those young people are living in such a sexually repressive subculture that their only recourse is to marry, too young, too fast, very often to the wrong person.
BTW, one of the common complaints I kept hearing from my friends at Saddleback was that the church had no idea what to do with all these single people. It was like there were these two groups -- married couples & families vs the singles -- and they didn't have much to do with each other. For a while, the church had a Friday night country dance for everybody (the singles ministry had had their own dances and dance classes long before that), but the leading pastors only wanted there to be line dancing, no couples dancing, out of mortal fear that a married person might end up dancing with a single person. The person running the dance had couples dancing anyway, without the top brass even knowing about it. The attitudes of those Baptists about dancing are just crazy! And I've seen other "true Christians" in their own forums viciously villifying Rick Warren for allowing dancing at his church. What a hoot!
But, yeah, what they preach and claim about marriage and family values and what they actually practice are two different things. If they were really concerned about preserving marriage, they'd be trying to do something about the divorce rates, which does truly threaten marriage, instead of diverting everybody's attention away towards a distinctive non-threat, gay marriage.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Taz, posted 03-16-2010 6:10 PM Taz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by PaulK, posted 03-16-2010 7:45 PM dwise1 has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 221 of 245 (550629)
03-16-2010 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by PaulK
03-16-2010 7:45 PM


Re: Lets talk values
Also, I understand that "saddlebacking" is a term that derived from the Saddleback church. It's more than just dancing that goes on.
I was about to ask for a definition, but then I remembered my second favorite axiom, "When in doubt, Google about!" -- search keywords are saddlebacking definition; it's even in Wikipedia, which is normally the first place I look. Not only did I find the definition, but there's apparently an entire site devoted to it. And, yes, I've long heard of young evangelicals engaging in that as well as in oral sex so that she could still claim to be a "virgin", albeit disingenuously.
BTW, if you look it up in Wikipedia, you'll get a more complete story of the term's origin, defined by Dan Savage's readers in response to "Stephen Colbert's comment that saddleback sounded like a sex act".
But Saddleback segregates its singles by age groups (gee, there's an awful lot of segregation going on there!) and most of my contact was with the 40's-and-above group, so I have no immediate exposure to that practice.
I had thought that you were referring to the word on the street that the women are some of the easiest lays in the area. They'll put up a good talk at first, but they're no match against the human nature that they deny so strongly. I also have no immediate exposure to that, since I would not wish to take advantage, but within the dance community I know some of the men who have dipped their toes into that pond a number of times. The irony is that Christian singles are such a large block of clientele and there is so much competition among dance teachers here (the real OC has more dancing per capita than anywhere else in the country) that many teachers are afraid of saying anything that a Christian could possibly construe as off-color so as to take offense and pull her friends along with her as she storms out.
Sometimes it's worth hanging out with them just for sheer entertainment. Like the time that they were denouncing the Calvary Church people (Chuck Smith's folk, derived from Orange County's 1970 "Jesus Freak" movement) for being too judgemental.

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Replies to this message:
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