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Author Topic:   Are mutations truly random or are they guided?
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2505 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 25 of 134 (548713)
03-01-2010 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Stagamancer
03-01-2010 1:54 AM


"Non-random mutations".
Stagamancer writes:
However, as I alluded to in my previous post, it is possible for mutations to occur nonrandomly, in a sense. For example,
Yes. Here's a review paper on the subject. Like the paper you quote, it's ten years old, so this shouldn't be news to most EvC regulars.
Organisms can react to stress in a way which has proven successful for their ancestors, and has therefore been selected for. This can increase variation in specific areas of the genome which are more likely to produce something useful in relation to the cause of the stress in the environment than other areas. It has obvious advantages over a general increase in mutation rate that's spread randomly over the whole genome, as it doesn't increase detrimental mutation rates in irrelevant areas.
The paper, HERE, discusses some possible mechanisms in relation to starvation induced stress. A kind of apparent Lamarckian effect can be the result, because a positive adaption in relation to a new environmental factor can be speeded up.
The answer to the question in the O.P. title, "Are mutations truly random or are they guided" is that some mutations are partially guided by a combination of environmental factors and the history of the species involved (whether or not it has inherited the tendency to react positively to a specific kind of stress).
The initial ancestral tendency would, however, have been a random variation. The end result is an example of evolvability itself ( or adaptability if you like) having been selected for.

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 Message 23 by Stagamancer, posted 03-01-2010 1:54 AM Stagamancer has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Bolder-dash, posted 03-01-2010 8:38 AM bluegenes has replied
 Message 31 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-01-2010 9:37 AM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2505 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 35 of 134 (548730)
03-01-2010 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Bolder-dash
03-01-2010 8:38 AM


Re: "Non-random mutations".
Bolder-dash writes:
bluegenes writes:
The initial ancestral tendency would, however, have been a random variation. The end result is an example of evolvability itself ( or adaptability if you like) having been selected for.
Once again, like so many of the assertions in the ToE we just have to take evolutionists word for it that this is how it happened, because of course you can't prove this assertion any more than all of the other ones. It must have been random at one time, and then got selected for, and that is how it became non-random.....and so just believe us...
Of course you don't have to take my word for it. It's based on the observation that random variations within species are common, and that advantageous ones are selected for. There's plenty of evidence to support that in the literature, as I'm sure you'd agree.
So, by all means present an (observation based) alternative explanation for the origin of the stress related reactions I was talking about if you disagree. There's certainly no obligation to agree with me.
Bolder-dash writes:
So even when we have examples of evolution being 'guided" by the individual, your theory is so flexible it can simply say, "well, yea, the evolution is guided NOW, but...."
There's a reason why the words "environment" and "individual" are spelt differently. It's because they mean different things. The individual cells do not really guide evolution, they react automatically and unconsciously to starvation induced stress in a way that they've inherited. I said:
bluegenes writes:
....some mutations are partially guided by a combination of environmental factors and the history of the species involved (whether or not it has inherited the tendency to react positively to a specific kind of stress).
Bolder-dash writes:
It should be renamed, The Incredible, Mutating, Adapting, Twisting, and Re-conforming Theory of Evolution of Whatever We Need it to Say That We Don't Have to Prove Theory.
If you look at what I'm describing, and you understand it, you will be able to see that it's all due to variation and natural selection, the very key words used to describe biological evolution 150 years ago. The theory does evolve, of course, but it's only micro-evolution so far.

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 Message 27 by Bolder-dash, posted 03-01-2010 8:38 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2505 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 36 of 134 (548732)
03-01-2010 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Dr Adequate
03-01-2010 9:37 AM


Re: "Non-random mutations".
Dr Adequate writes:
bluegenes writes:
The answer to the question in the O.P. title, "Are mutations truly random or are they guided" is that some mutations are partially guided ...
I think that "guided" is too strong a word. The effect discussed in the paper still doesn't allow the mechanism to "know" which mutations would be beneficial, just which genes might benefit from a mutation.
What about my phrase "partially guided", especially when we consider that a rock rolling down a hill is guided in its route by the contours of the hill. But I agree that the mechanism doesn't "know" anything specific. We could say that the rate and region of variation can be guided by the environment in certain circumstances.
Dr Adequate writes:
(Of course, since we know from creationist dogma that their are No Beneficial Mutations, Amen, this is in fact a mechanism for royally screwing organisms up in the very locations where they are most vulnerable, as devised by a God who was either retarded or perversely vindictive.)
Actually, some of the more sophisticated I.D. types get very excited about this kind of thing, and see it as designed/front loaded evolution. I think that they may as well skip all the details, include naturalistic abiogenesis in their view, opt for a "front loaded" universe designed to be as it is, and become Deists.
Then they wouldn't have to worry about not having any positive evidence any more.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-01-2010 9:37 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
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