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Author Topic:   Evidence for the Biblical Record
anglagard
Member (Idle past 943 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 164 of 348 (550968)
03-20-2010 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by Peg
03-19-2010 11:43 PM


Re: Denial Of The Evidence
Peg writes:
Modern linguists have also created a chart of human language and they've found there there are parent languges from which all other languages are derived. This is in harmony with the bible account.
This statement is not true according to modern linguists.
For just one single example, Euskara, the ancient language still spoken by some Basques, no prior root language has even remotely been agreed upon by any purported 'modern linguists.'
See: Basque language - Wikipedia
quote:
All hypotheses on the origin of Basque are controversial, and the suggested evidence is not generally accepted by most linguists. Some of these hypothetical connections are as follows:
* Iberian: another ancient language once spoken in the peninsula, shows several similarities with Aquitanian and Basque. However, there is not enough evidence to distinguish areal contacts from genetic relationship. Iberian itself remains unclassified. Eduardo Ordua Aznar claims to have established correspondences between Basque and Iberian numerals[9] and noun case markers.
* the Ligurian substrate hypothesis proposed in the 19th century by d'Arbois de Joubainville, J. Pokorny, P. Kretschmer and several other linguists encompasses the Basco-Iberian hypothesis.
* Georgian: Linking Basque to South Caucasian languages is now widely discredited. The hypothesis was inspired by the existence of the ancient Kingdom of Iberia farther east in the Mediterranean. According to J.P. Mallory, in his 1989 book In Search of the Indo-Europeans, the hypothesis was also inspired by a Basque place-name ending in -adze.
* Northeast Caucasian languages, such as Chechen, are seen by the French linguist Michel Morvan as more likely candidates for a very distant connection.[10]
* Dene-Caucasian superfamily: Based on the possible Caucasian link, some linguists, for example John Bengtson and Merritt Ruhlen, have proposed including Basque in the Dene-Caucasian superfamily of languages, but this proposed superfamily includes languages from North America and Eurasia, and its existence is highly controversial.[2]
* Vasconic substratum hypothesis: This proposal, by the German linguist Theo Vennemann, claims that there is enough toponymical evidence to conclude that Basque is the only survivor of a larger family that once extended throughout most of Europe, and has also left its mark in modern Indo-European languages spoken in Europe.[11]

I can come up with other examples but even just one refutes your assertion.
Remember you have been shown your statement is false, but that may be due to ignorance of fact. However, if you later willfully repeat the same statement after being shown it is false, you will be guilty of violating God's Commandment against bearing false witness.
Edited by anglagard, : Add willfully for emphasis
Edited by anglagard, : Add quote for those who, when contradicted, suddenly can't push the left button on a mouse.

The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
Salman Rushdie
This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Peg, posted 03-19-2010 11:43 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Peg, posted 03-20-2010 4:07 AM anglagard has replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 943 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 179 of 348 (551106)
03-21-2010 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Peg
03-20-2010 4:07 AM


Palm That Pea
In message 158 in this thread you stated:
quote:
Modern linguists have also created a chart of human language and they've found there there are parent languges from which all other languages are derived. This is in harmony with the bible account.
emphasis mine
In message 164 in this thread I stated:
quote:
For just one single example, Euskara, the ancient language still spoken by some Basques, no prior root language has even remotely been agreed upon by any purported 'modern linguists.'
Please allow me to clarify:
You said "Modern linguists have also created a chart of human language and they've found there there are parent languges from which all other languages are derived."
I said "For just one single example, Euskara, the ancient language still spoken by some Basques, no prior root language has even remotely been agreed upon by any purported 'modern linguists."
It is pretty obvious that you imply that essentially all modern linguists are in general agreement that the Basque language has an identifiable root.
It is pretty obvious that I stated modern linguists do not in any way agree on the Basque language having any identifiable root.
Should you have sought to imply something resembling the truth, you would have modified the term 'modern linguists' with the word some, or a few, or a minority of. Instead you clearly leave the impression that a majority of the modern community of linguists agree on an identifiable root language to Euskara.
That is a false assertion, as I clearly showed.
However instead of dealing with the matter at hand you try to palm the pea, shift the goalposts.
quote:
and this does not present a problem for the biblical account of the confusion of languages because according to Genesis, completely new languages were given to the people. We should see completely unrelated languages in the world and the fact that we do adds weight to the bibles account of how they got here.
Your speculations concerning any god magically poofing languages into existence at any time is not the issue. The issue here is the assertion that modern linguists at this very moment somehow agree that every language has an identifiable root.
I hold that you are falsely representing the consensus of their findings.
Now you can either deal with or not as is your wont.
how in the world did you conclude that my assertion that all languages can be traced to a parent language are false? According to the genesis account, there should be several parent languages....which there are.
Because you asserted that at present, right now, that "Modern linguists have also created a chart of human language and they've found there there are parent languges from which all other languages are derived."
That statement is false as shown with the single counterexample I provided.
aside from the fact that not all linguists agree with the basque language hypotheses (likely because they just dont have enough information yet) what makes impossible that it itself is not a parent language?
Once again future findings are not the issue. The issue is that you stated that "Modern linguists have also created a chart of human language and they've found there there are parent languges from which all other languages are derived."
And now you make your case even less defensible by you yourself stating "what makes impossible that it itself is not a parent language?" which totally refutes any validity behind the statement that it has an identifiable root agreed upon by a majority of linguists.
You can't even get your story straight.
As to my ending, it was over harsh considering the previous or that you meant to imply falsehood and move the goalposts/palm the pea, as opposed to knowingly and directly state an indisputable falsehood as fact. Still bad form.
{ABE} either that or you are having a lot of trouble in either creating or following a coherent argument - I am beginning to tilt toward this second explanation, in which case I was definitely overly judgmental. {/ABE}
Edited by anglagard, : point out self-contradiction.
Edited by anglagard, : clarity
Edited by anglagard, : No reason given.
Edited by anglagard, : replace defiantly with definitely, Freud's slip is showing

The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
Salman Rushdie
This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Peg, posted 03-20-2010 4:07 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Peg, posted 03-21-2010 5:09 PM anglagard has replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 943 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 191 of 348 (551219)
03-21-2010 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Peg
03-21-2010 5:09 PM


Re: Palm That Pea
Peg writes:
Modern linguists have also created a chart of human language and they've found there there are parent languges from which all other languages are derived.
You stated this as a matter of present fact. I pointed out that there is at least one language to which no parent language is remotely agreed upon by modern linguists.
They have not agreed on the identification of the parent language spoken by some Basques, therefore your assertion is at best misleading.
However, I think you are either playing at being dense, or are actually too dense to even begin to understand the objection.
I find it a waste of time to try to communicate with someone who has a mental block against understanding what I am saying.
So forget it. May as well be taking to the cat.

The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
Salman Rushdie
This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Peg, posted 03-21-2010 5:09 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Peg, posted 03-22-2010 3:38 AM anglagard has not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 943 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 209 of 348 (551548)
03-23-2010 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by ZenMonkey
03-23-2010 1:18 AM


Re: Not.
I notice by your map, if you look really close, there appears to be a shade of color in northeast Spain and southwest France different from the rest of Europe.
I hope you realize that this color is not allowed in the Pegiverse.
Edited by anglagard, : the yellow guy indicating the nature of the post

The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
Salman Rushdie
This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by ZenMonkey, posted 03-23-2010 1:18 AM ZenMonkey has not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 943 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 294 of 348 (553789)
04-05-2010 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by Peg
04-03-2010 11:42 PM


Re: Denial Of The Evidence
Peg writes:
That is not my opinion. The bible is a record of human history not found anywhere else, it provides answers to questions not found anywhere else.
Would such all-encompassing answers include the invention of the Mayan and Aztec calendars, the methods used in creating corn and potatoes from the original wild forms, and the full extent of the entire history of China?
It appears the Bible may be more a local history, than a global history, and recent scholarship indicates a somewhat less than infallible source of even local history at that.
Cheering the home team is nothing more than provincialism, it is not in any way related to a self-examined life.

The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
Salman Rushdie
This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Peg, posted 04-03-2010 11:42 PM Peg has not replied

  
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