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Author Topic:   Evidence for the Biblical Record
Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 144 days)
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007

Message 325 of 348 (585482)
10-08-2010 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by BarackZero
10-08-2010 12:29 PM

Hi BarackZero,
The natural fabrication of a hard, solid material, from a gas and a liquid doesn't seem very plausible to me either. But plants do just that every second of every day.
And your point is? This is a thread for "Evidence for the Biblical Record", not "Evidence That Wood Exists".
If the Bible accurately said that wood was made from carbon dioxide, I would be impressed. But it doesn't, so I'm not.
They convert carbon dioxide gas and water into wood, which can last thousands of years. I have seen such wood at the British Museum. It was fabricated into coffins for people of high stations in Egypt millenia ago.
Yes. And I have a chip of wood on the shelf next to me as I write this that is over 160 million years old. So what?
If you could have asked Wolfgang Mozart or Ludwig von Beethoven if their music could be enjoyed seven miles in the sky, traveling at 650 miles per hour, as played by an orchestra one night forty years ago, they would have thought you insane. Such ideas would not have seemed very plausible, to put it mildly.
And if the Bible correctly predicted that we might enjoy recorded music whilst flying in an aeroplane, I would be impressed. But it doesn't, so I'm not. Y'see how this works?
But you see, we do have things to learn.
Like, for example, what your point is.
Drop one drop of concentrated sodium hydroxide in phenolphthalein solution and you can turn it from clear to pink instantly.
And if the Bible said that one drop of sodium hydroxide... ah, you get the point.
It's not magic at all. But even if it were, why is that so implausible for a Creator who can create a universe?
I wouldn't be. But since no-one has presented any evidence for any such entity I remain unimpressed.
Mutate and Survive
Edited by Granny Magda, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by BarackZero, posted 10-08-2010 12:29 PM BarackZero has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 327 by BarackZero, posted 10-08-2010 5:15 PM Granny Magda has replied

Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 144 days)
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007

Message 331 of 348 (585553)
10-08-2010 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 327 by BarackZero
10-08-2010 5:15 PM

Hi BZ,
Your Darwinist friend said thus and such "doesn't seem very plausible."
No. Ringo (I presume this is who you're referring to) was referring to water turning to blood, and not as part of a natural process, but in reference to the clearly supernatural events described in Revelation. Comets do not turn water to blood; the fact that plants produce wood does not appear to be immediately relevant to this issue.
If I have missed the connection here, please feel free to point it out.
One person's opinion, or millions of people's opinions may not "seem very plausible." This does not make them either wrong, nor unscientific.
No, the lack of any sane suggestion of how a comet might turn water to blood makes Big Al's argument unscientific. If You or Big Al could come up with a sensible explanation of how a "scorching ball" might turn water to blood and how this supports the Biblical record, then we might have something worth debating.
Let's be clear; Big Al has been making the claim that Revelation mentions comets and that this is evidence for the veracity of the Bible. This claim is false; it is ludicrously vague and, as Ringo points out, it mentions nonsensical effects, like water turning to blood. This does not sound much like a comet or meteorite.
If you think that Rev 8:8-9 (or any other part of Revelation) accurately describes a comet or meteorite, please explain to me;
a) How a comet/meteorite can turn water to blood, or;
b) What the hell the ability of plants to make wood has to do with comets turning water to blood, or;
c) How any of this supports the Biblical record.
There are countless facts that are well documented in the Holy Bible.
Do you seriously think that this is one of them? That Revelation describes a comet so accurately that we could not reasonably doubt its veracity? It is quite a claim. You have done nothing to substantiate it.
If you think that the Bible contains facts, I agree with you. Some of it is fact.
If you are arguing that some of those facts accurately reflect scientific knowledge anachronistic to the period in which the texts were written, I have to disagree.
That you find some excuse to reject them in toto is not surprising in the least, for you have an atheist ax to grind.
As you can see above, I do not reject the Bible as completely untrue. Just mostly untrue. Like your accusations of bad faith.
Why don't you take some gas, some water, and go outside and make some wood yourself. Please feel free to use flasks, beakers, and even some common reagents, including of course sodium hydroxide and hydrochloric acid. Should be no problem for you.
I am still rather puzzled by your insistence on talking about how impressive wood is. Yes, it's very impressive, and no, I cannot make it myself. But then there are lots of things I can't do, so this comes as no surprise.
Are you arguing that my inability to create wood is somehow evidence that wood is created? That seems somewhat perverse.
Mutate and Survive

"A curious aspect of the theory of evolution is that everybody thinks he understands it." - Jacques Monod

This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by BarackZero, posted 10-08-2010 5:15 PM BarackZero has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 336 by BarackZero, posted 10-10-2010 7:18 AM Granny Magda has replied

Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 144 days)
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007

Message 341 of 348 (585918)
10-10-2010 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 336 by BarackZero
10-10-2010 7:18 AM

No Evidence, Just Whining
First, you should really make the effort to use the quote functions here. They make your post much easier to read. Right now, your posts are a strain on the eye. It's really very simple and it will be a big help to you in making your points as effectively as possible.
Type [qs]quotes are easy[/qs] and it becomes:
quotes are easy

or type [quote]quotes are easy[/quote] and it becomes:
quotes are easy

also check out (help) links on any formating questions when in the reply window.

What seems plausible to one individual may not seem plausible to others. Plausibility is clearly relative, not only to the person, but to a particular person's background and training, which of course change dramatically over the years.
Right. This is trivially obvious. This is why we must resort to evidence. Big Al's comet scenario does not agree with any information about comets that I know of. Do you have any evidence concerning the likelihood of a comet turning water to blood? If not, then the argument that Revelation describes a comet is without backing.
Context is very often tossed out the door by leftists with an ax to grind....
To the extent that Darwinists trivialize so many things, and take so very much for granted,
Please stop it with the childish insults. You complain about being treated like a child. there is a clear riposte to these accusations; don't behave like one. Throwing around silly and irrelevant nonsense about "leftists" and "Darwinists" is not relevant to the topic nor is it mature and intelligent debating practise.
Everyone everywhere almost without exception knows what wood is, indeed takes wood for granted.
Not so fast. It is amazing stuff, a solid constructed from water and gas. Whereas scientific enlightenment can amaze and delight the better it is understood, Darwinists have the nasty habit of taking precisely the opposite position, trivializing and dismissing the beauties all around us.
So you are saying that wood is very impressive stuff. I agree. So what?
I still don't see what this has to do with comets and Revelation. If your only point is that wood is amazing, therefore we should expect other features of the universe to be amazing as well then fine. I agree.
What I do not see is why the amazing properties of wood make it reasonable to suggest that a story which mentions the seas turning to blood is a good match for a comet. There is no connection.
Do you have any evidence that comets or meteorites cause water to turn to blood? No. That one thing is astonishing does not imply that any astonishing proposition must be true. That wood is amazing does not imply that comets ought to be able to turn water to blood.
Carl Sagan said that spectroscopy was something that STILL amazed him. Had an interloper said that here, he would have been dismissed with: "Well, it's all science, so no big deal. WE understand it. YOU do not."
Again, this is just needless and unfounded abuse. In my experience, science enthusiasts never lose their sense of wonder at the amazing properties of the universe, as your Sagan quote demonstrates.
The unfairness of all dialogues within EvC refutes the very theme at the top right of your screen: "Understanding through Discussion".
My remarks have been interpreted as so incredibly ignorant that one of your co-Darwinists has accused me of being a teenager in high school, unworthy of even wiping "Al Gore's ass."
Does that sound like "Understanding" to you?
Did you ever challenge one of your Darwinist friends for their intolerance or hatefulness?
Good grief. If you want to be taken seriously or treated as an adult, then stop whining like a stroppy teenager and argue your point. I am not responsible for Omni's words or anyone else's, so quit wasting time.
Then you see it as "good faith" as a fellow Darwinist calls me a teenager unworthy of "wiping Al Gore's ass"?
You are familiar with the idea that different people are... well... different people, right? You know that I'm not Omni and that he is not me? Right?
Well then, stop badgering me over what other people have said to you. It is irrelevant to my posts. "EvC members are big meanies!" won't butter any parsnips, nor will it provide evidence for the Biblical record.
I say again, I do not. It would be one thing if his behavior were rare, and were condemned by most or even a few of you.
That such behavior by Darwinists is almost ubiquitous at any such forum as this, and that such behavior is almost never condemned by the Darwinian masses is disgusting, reprehensible, cowardly, and anti-scientific.
So you don't have any evidence for the veracity of the Biblical record? Just kvetching. Oh well, can't say I'm surprised.
Mutate and Survive

"A curious aspect of the theory of evolution is that everybody thinks he understands it." - Jacques Monod

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by BarackZero, posted 10-10-2010 7:18 AM BarackZero has not replied

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