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Author Topic:   Evidence for the Biblical Record
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 348 (550332)
03-14-2010 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ZenMonkey
03-14-2010 12:28 AM


Re: Some Evidence Starters
Zen Monkey writes:
So I'd like some specifics. What factual claims are being made about the Bible for which someone has independent evidence that isn't trivial?
Good job on the OP, Zen. I appreciate that you have enough interest to open this topic. I agree that the Biblical corroborating evidence must involve physical observation and not simply Bible corroborating Bible.
So far as the prophecies and some other evidence, it mayl be necessary to cite various Biblical corroborating texts so as to verify what is being prophesied etc.
Most of the evidence which I've alluded to has been cited and debated over the years available here and there in the archives. Perhaps this thread will be useful so as to update and collect it into one thread.
Just as is the case with some science issues, some evidences are more empirical and falsifiable than others.
It must be understood that all physical evidence supportive to the Biblical record becomes necessarily supportive to personal non-falsifiable experience only for the one/ones involved with experience.. In other words, according to the Bible, all who call upon God and become his follower will become enlightened via receiving and believing and receiving Jesus God's son. One thus receives the spirit of Jesus and of God the father, i.e. the Holy Spirit. Certain gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit, coupled with corroborating physical evidence work together so as to effect faith. To the ones who draw close to God, such personal evidences such as phenomenal answers to prayer, phenomenal circumstances miracles, etc, work to enforce and corroborate the physical evidences.
I know that personal unverifiable experience is not what this thread is about. The sole reason for citing them is to say that these experiences (for the believer) substantially enforce and corroborate the physical evidences which will be cited in this thread.
I'll begin my case with some of the evidences which I've cited in an archived thread linked below. Perhaps from this list some members, pro or con, may wish to make comments.
I see PaulK has already touched on a couple, but that's about all PaulK ever does is touch on, or perhaps kick the thorns, glibly alleging that there is nothing, no matter how much the evidence, verifiable in the Bible relative to miracle. I've pretty much given up on responding to the same oles from members like PaulK, so I suggest if you want responses from me, allow me the same consideration that you require from me in attempting to refute.
Buzsaw writes:
Some corroborative examples supportive to the divine inspiration of the Biblical record:
1. Archaeological evidence in the Gulf of Aqaba region of Nuweiba beach and sandbar which secularist archaeologists avoid and refuse to verify or refute. The National Geographic, for example has claimed that there is absolutely no evidence of the Biblical Exodus. I watched their so called "Exodus Revealed" program where they cited a traditional Mt Sinai version of the Exodus where the crossing was allegedly near the traditional mountain at the mouth of Aqaba where there was no evidence whatsoever. The ones who produced this which was essentially an undermining of the real Exodus cite where the evidence was repeatedly reminded the viewers that there was no evidence for the Exodus whatsoever, referring to the old traditional cite. They totally ignored the Nuweiba cite where all of the evidence, including the chariot debris, the entrapment terrain, the burnt topped mountain, the NT statement that it was in Arabia and the split rock as well as other evidence.
(Edited into original text: I have long chided the National Geographic's Robert Ballard, marine geologist/researcher who apparantly has no interest in falsifying or substantiating the Nuweiba crossing evidence. Imo, National Geographic does not want any evidence which would destroy their secular humanist world view. They have the same problem as our secular humanist folks here who assume no responsibility to a higher power. To admit one eensy weensy miracle would be evidence that a higher power/iintelligence. exists. )
2. Lack of transitional fossil evidence.
3. Enormity of complexity and design observed on earth and in the cosmos.
4. Prophecy of Ezekiel 35 through 39 which predicts end time messianic declarations of scattering of Jews throughout the world to be restored as a nation.
35, 36 = Prophecy of Edom/modern Palestinians, descendents of Essau and Ishmael where these people would be claiming two nations including the Jewish holy cites such as the Temple Mount.
36 = Prophecy of desolate hills and valleys of Israel coming to life and being restored to production and lush vegetation.
37 = Prophecy of the Jews returning to their land never to be again removed and that they would return from all nations and dwell in their own land under messianic reign of the messiah who was to be the descendant of David.
38. = Prophecy of the nations surrounding nations and nations north of Israel who would threaten and eventually invade the restored nation, i.e. Armageddon. The nations named and described are in place as enemies of Israel all working for the division of the land and of the annihilation of the nation as Jewish and as Israel.
5. Prophecies of end time Messiah in Isaiah 52 who would be first offered up as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind (Isaiah 53,54) and who would become ruler of restored Israel.
6. Prophecy of Jesus in Luke 21 when he prophesied that Jerusalem would be invaded and become occupied by Gentile nations until the end times when it would again be occupied by Jews.
7. Compatibility with 1LoT in that no energy is created from nothing. All energy, matter and forces comes from the divine omnipotent creator to be changed and managed by the designer according to his intelligent creative and manageability powers.
8. Compatibility with 2LoT in that equilibrium is effected when energy moves from creator to creation. This is effected by work of the designer. An example of this is also when Jesus healed the woman who had a blood issue affliction. When the woman was healed, Jesus noted that energy had left him and went into her ailment to effect the healing.
9. Observance of cultures comparing Biblical cultures with pagan and secularist cultures where the more blessed cultures are those who follow Biblical principles and guidelines.
As I have always contended, it's not that each of the above proves the Biblical record, but that when you corroborate all of these, not to mention many other evidences which I've not cited, you have evidences supportive to the inspiration of the Biblical record. There are arguments pro and con for some of the above, but the more corroboration you have for any ideology, the more credible the ideology becomes.
There are pro and con arguments to all ideologies, but the folks here at EvC, for the most part tend to refuse acknowledgement of the corroborative pro arguments which are supportive to the Biblical record.
EvC Forum: Anything Divine in the Bible?
ABE) Item 2; make that lack of evolution transitional fossils. There should be far more than the few questionable ones claimed.
Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.
Edited by Buzsaw, : note addition to original text
Edited by Buzsaw, : Tidy up message

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ZenMonkey, posted 03-14-2010 12:28 AM ZenMonkey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by ZenMonkey, posted 03-14-2010 10:57 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 21 by PaulK, posted 03-15-2010 3:36 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 91 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 03-16-2010 9:00 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 348 (550334)
03-14-2010 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Hyroglyphx
03-14-2010 8:35 PM


Re: Existence Of God
Hyroglyphx writes:
You're forgetting one critical element. The causation for what exists -- God. Where is the indisputable evidence of that? Sure, the earth exists. That doesn't prove that God, whatever God is, created it. Therein lies the crux of the situation.
If I may interject for ICANT, perhaps as the thread progresses, some evidences will be aired.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-14-2010 8:35 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 348 (550379)
03-15-2010 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by ZenMonkey
03-14-2010 10:57 PM


Re: Some Evidence Starters
Hi Zen Monkey. LOL.
1) Where did you get your photo of the alleged wheel? I suggest that the reader/viewer use the World Daily News link which you cited to see a better photo of the one you put up. Yours does not depict the protruding axle.
2) Obviously World Daily News is a highly biased non-objective source of information on this.
A) They failed to report the major scientific research and photography done at this site by Swedish marine biologist Lennart Moller who sailed his scientific marine research equipped ocean craft into the region and used his underwater photography equipment to photograph the region,
B) The World Daily report cited just one of the numerous formations, some of which were better specimens of chariot like wheel and axle.
C) The World Daily report failed to cite the corroborating evidence in the region and the Biblical record compatible description of the topography of the path which the Exodus followed.
E) The World Daily failed to report that such coral formations were not common in the region.
F) World Daily did not mention the same kind of underwater evidence which was found on the Saudi side opposite of Nuweiba Beach. This was done by a woman researcher, if I recall correctly. I'll see if I can get that.
3. Imo, unfortunately, ICR (Institute For Creation Research) who's John Morris Sr has not bought into the Nuweiba site appears to have little interest in researching the site due to their own axe to grind. Morris has made some expeditions into the traditional Sinai Penninsula alleged Mt Sinai, claiming that that is the only viable location of the Biblical account, in spite of the fact that the NT of the Bible states that Mt Sinai is in Arabia.
I have great regard for much of the work of ICR, but all I can figure out of this is that they don't want to debunk all of their own literature and position on this. They appear to have some of the same non-objective attitude that secularist folks like National Geographic have.
I haven't yet put my mind into bringing up images in my messages, but I'll see if I can get up a link or two with some better info than World Daily has produced on this. There's a lot more to this than WD News has admitted to, whether of ignorance or purposefully.
I have Lennart Moller's excellent EXODUS VIDEO and his book THE EXODUS STORY. I first got interested in this account way back in the 1980s or so when I met Ron Wyatt and attended his lecture and slide show of his 17 expeditions into the Ararat Mountain area relative to Noah's Ark and into this Nuweiba Beach area.
More on this later.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by ZenMonkey, posted 03-14-2010 10:57 PM ZenMonkey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Theodoric, posted 03-15-2010 10:40 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 26 by ZenMonkey, posted 03-15-2010 1:28 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 348 (550464)
03-15-2010 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by ZenMonkey
03-15-2010 1:47 PM


Re: Some Evidence Starters
Zen Monkey writes:
You're right, we have no idea what this is a picture of. Since the alleged wheel in question is apparently lost and can't be re-examined, the photographic evidence will have to do. And the photographs seem inconclusive at best. However, if there's any additional documentation of artifacts that can be dated and whose provenance can be determined, I'm very willing to consider such. Let's see what Buz comes up with.
Thanks for being patient, Zen. It's hit and miss with the computer in my busy life.
I suggest you take about half an hour and watch this video from the Wyatt site. Towards the end of it several alleged coral encased wheels will be shown, but one really should view the whole thing so as to see why the late Ron Wyatt, Moller and others consider it to be scientific evidence. There are other short interviews with Moller by various hosts available on other web sites so as to help understand why he, the scientist spent $$, time at some risk to do the research. One of those interviews is and interesting one of Moller with Israel's Prime Minister, Benyamin Netanyahu.
Red Sea Crossing

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by ZenMonkey, posted 03-15-2010 1:47 PM ZenMonkey has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Huntard, posted 03-15-2010 7:09 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 348 (550477)
03-15-2010 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by PaulK
03-15-2010 3:36 AM


Re: Some Evidence Starters
PaulK writes:
1) .....(We should also note that Wyatt and Moeller's preferred dating requires a major rewrite of the Egyptian 18th Dynasty - and one that is contradicted by evidence that may easily be found).
The dating is debatable. It is not uncommon for Kings to skew dates, obscure and/or erase evidence of defeat in order that enemies would not discover weakness and other reasons.
On the other hand, the "burnt top mountain" is not burnt. It is simply topped with darker rock, and would have had that appearance long before the Exodus supposedly happened. This evidence assumes that the story is inaccurate and exaggerated.
That has not been verified because the Saudi's do no allow access to it by researchers. It must be understood that any research in the region is risky and dangerous, given the Muslim Saudis have no desire to support the Biblical record relative to anything supportive to Israel and Jews.
THe NT statement has also been looked at and seems to be simply a misinterpretation, mistaking modern Saudi Arabia for the "Arabia" of the ancient writers.
LOL on this one, Paul. It was the land of Midian which is on the east side of the Gulf of Aqaba where the OT text says Moses met with his father in law, Jethro, priest of Midian. It all jives nicely with both OT and NT.
The split rock is just a split rock. How rare are split rocks ? Is there any more significant evidence at that site to link it to the Exodus ?
Paul, you need to understand:
1) That though there may be an occasional spit rock in various locations, this spiit rock has a dry bed flow evidence of a significant flow of water, enough to cut a stream. There would be no reason for a stream flowing from this relatively small rising other than a flow of water from the crack in the rock.
2. This unusual phenomenon just happens to be in prezactly the right location needful for corroborating the Nuweiba site where the wheel and axle shaped formations were photographed.
2) The alleged lack of transitional fossils is an old creationist canard and one that has been repeatedly refuted here.
And a host of creationists aren't buying the relative scanty allegements of species transional evidence. We maintain that there should be a great abundance of transitionals from numerous stages of transition.
3) Is just a subjective opinion. There is in fact no clear evidence of design as such outside of human - and maybe some animal - activity.
Yah, and the debate goes on numerous reputable scientists on both sides of the debate.
4) Ezekiel 35-39 appears to be a revenge fantasy referring to ancient peoples which Buz interprets according to his own murderous fantasies. We must remember that Ezekiel wrote during the Exile and very likely had return from Babylon in mind.
Here you show either your ignorance or your deliberate choice to sweep under the proverbial rug all of the data in these chapters which obviously allude to a future time. This all corroborates with Jesus's prophecy that Jerusalem would be occupied by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled.
Paul you keep on ignoring my citing significance of the Six Day War
when Jews restored occupation and control of the old walled city just as prophesied By Ezekiel, Jesus and other prophets. This all corroborates the futuristic understanding of Ezekiel 38 and explains the stuff in those chapters which in no way applied to ancient events.
Paul, this is what I mean about the uselessness of debating with you on anything smacking of miracle. You wouldn't acknowledge it if it if it were able to bite your butt.
While Israel has made major efforts in irrigation it is questionable whether even this aspect of Ezekiel's prophecy can be said to be fulfilled in any significant way. Human hard work - aided by modern technology - is not divine intervention.
The biggy divine part in question here is the divine fulfillment of prophecy. The odds of a tiny nation of identifiable people being scattered globally for nearly two millenniums and return as as the same identifiable people would be beyond realistic calculation.
As was shown in past discussion the Edomites are gone, a people lost to history and most likely absorbed into the Jewish population. Ezekiel's "prophecy" did not predict that they would covet "two kingdoms" it predicted punishment for them because they had coveted the two kingdoms (Israel and Judah). Buz's reading makes nonsense of the prophecy.
The important thing relatively to the prophecy is that the Semetic Gentiles that occupy the land of Edom, being the very location of the Semetic descendents of Hagar, and Esau who are claiming two nations i.e. their own and Israel's as per the prophecy in Ezekiel 35:10, the prophecy concerning Edom.
Ezekiel 37 requires the return of the Lost Tribes of Israel and the reestablishment of the Davidic monarchy. Neither has occurred, therefore it is hard to see how it can be considered "evidence".
The primary people cited in these prophecies is Judah and Ephraim. The significant thing is that it will be restored as one nation and not two as was the case in ancient days.
Ezekiel 38 names ancient nations. And indeed, I have asked how modern Ethiopia (Ethiopia named as one of the nations) could be said to be a significant threat to Israel. Buz came up empty.
Though the Israel/Ethiopia relations have been relatively good, there have, according to the Wiki link below been shaky times when relations have been broken or in question due to pressure from the Arab block nations.
One significant thing here relative to this Ethiopean phenomenon is that there have been and are still these Beta Israelite Jews in Etheopia. Imo, for the sake of these, God has had a hand in this arrangement. Many have been allowed to migrate to Israel. Imo by the time of Armageddon Etheopia will be solidly alligned with Israel's enemies as prophesied.
Gotta run to an appointment for now.
Ethiopia—Israel relations - Wikipedia

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by PaulK, posted 03-15-2010 3:36 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by PaulK, posted 03-15-2010 8:03 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 44 by Theodoric, posted 03-15-2010 8:21 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 59 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-16-2010 12:38 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 348 (550498)
03-15-2010 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Theodoric
03-15-2010 8:21 PM


Re: Some Evidence Starters
Theodoric writes:
You do know that Moses is a central prophet in Islam, don't you?
You do know that preaching or teaching Bible is forbidden in Saudi Arabia, Indonesia and other Muslim nations?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Theodoric, posted 03-15-2010 8:21 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Theodoric, posted 03-15-2010 9:56 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 348 (550502)
03-15-2010 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Huntard
03-15-2010 7:09 PM


Re: Some comments on the video
Huntard writes:
Before we get to the actual crossing, speculation about the route the isrealites supposedly took. No evidence that they actually took this route presented. Also, we get some talk about a supposed egyptian fort that was supposed to have stood there. A structure is shown, but no evidence for the claim that this was an Egyptian fort. Some assertions are made about where the pillar of clouds was and went.
1. The hypothesis of the research begun was the Biblical description of what should be evidenced.
2. The Biblical description required the following:
A. A route towards Midian in Arabia in the region of Jethro, Moses's father in law.
B. A route that would lead to entrapment, but large enough area to accomodate a large number of people at the shore of the crossing.
C A route that would lead to an area where a pillar was erected.
D A route that would lead to a mountain showing evidence of being burnt at some time.
F. A route that would lead to a crossing where some evidence of chariot debris might be found.
G. A route that would lead to a crossing which on the other side would be a split rock and evidence of a water flow from the rock.
H. A route that perhaps would be evidence of bull worship inscriptions.
I. A region where an oasis of water and greenery might be found some distant inland.
We see "an amazing marker", a pillar........
Check.
The corroborating evidence listed above lends support to the wheel and axle shaped formations in the most shallow area of the whole Red Sea, including the gulf. No?
Huntard, et al, scientist Lennart Moller takes the position that here's the evidence. Let the evidence speak for itself and let each decide for themselves about the evidence. That's how science works. Regardless of your assessment of the evidence, it is bonafide scientific evidence for evaluation, i.e. bonafide creation science.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Huntard, posted 03-15-2010 7:09 PM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Theodoric, posted 03-15-2010 10:11 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 62 by ZenMonkey, posted 03-16-2010 1:37 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 63 by Huntard, posted 03-16-2010 2:51 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 348 (550505)
03-15-2010 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Theodoric
03-15-2010 8:27 PM


Re: My favorite line so far
Theodoric writes:
So there was no such thing as coral before man made items fell into the ocean? Atlantis must be under the Great Barrier Reef.
Theodoric, to be fair, your source is a blogger's statement. I cannot imagine a marine scientist making such a claim.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Theodoric, posted 03-15-2010 8:27 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Theodoric, posted 03-15-2010 10:13 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 348 (550510)
03-15-2010 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Theodoric
03-15-2010 9:56 PM


Re: Indonesia and Bible
Theodoric writes:
You are correct about Saudi Arabia, but I do not know of any other Muslim country that bans preaching or teaching of the bible. Please enlighten me.
Your comment does not strengthen your argument. All it does is display your ignorance. Moses is a big thing in Islam. This can not be denied. So why would they prevent research into him? Please provide evidence that the Saudi's do not allow research into Moses. I have found a few websites by christians saying they have researched it in Saudi Arabia. Are they lying?
Mohammed picked and chose whatever suited his desires what he wanted from the Bible, but I know of no Islamic nation which looks favorably on the Bible, including Indonesia where Biblical churches and people often are persecuted and have their churches attacked and destroyed.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Theodoric, posted 03-15-2010 9:56 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Theodoric, posted 03-15-2010 10:47 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 348 (550511)
03-15-2010 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Theodoric
03-15-2010 10:13 PM


Re: My favorite line so far
Theodoric writes:
The comment was to point out the idiocy of some of the arguments used to push this idea.
This thread is about evidence. Your source served to obfuscate the evidence, leaving the impression to the reader that Moller et al were the idiots.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Theodoric, posted 03-15-2010 10:13 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Theodoric, posted 03-15-2010 10:48 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 348 (550516)
03-15-2010 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Theodoric
03-15-2010 10:11 PM


Re: Some comments on the video
I don't know about the details of the alleged gold veneered wheel. I tend to go with what Moller, the scientist concludes than Wyatt. Nevertheless, you can't just discard all of the other evidences on a few of the questionables, imo.
Your site states that coral are often wheel shaped. However, if you google up some coral reefs, you don't see scattered wheel shaped corals void of much else in the area of them as you see here. I viewed some reefs and saw nothing like what we have here, isolated formations on top of a sand bar in line with the corroborated path of the alleged Exodus.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Theodoric, posted 03-15-2010 10:11 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Coyote, posted 03-16-2010 12:04 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 348 (550545)
03-16-2010 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by ZenMonkey
03-16-2010 1:37 AM


Re: Ahem.
Zen Monkey writes:
Let's ask the question another way. If the account of the Exodus given in the Bible were substantially correct, what physical evidence could we find for which the Biblical account would be the simplest and best explanation? What would have to be there that could be explained rationally no other way? I can think of a number of pieces of evidence that would go a long way to to support some significant aspects of the story. Can you?
To help you along, here's an example. If I were to hypothesize that Norsemen colonized the coast of modern-day Virginia in the 9th century and stayed there for three hundred years, then I should rightfully expect to find specific types of evidence for my hypothesis to be supportable. There should be at least a few local artifacts that were clearly of Northern European origin and that could be dated reliably to the proper time period. More tellingly, I would pretty much have to find genetic evidence among the descendants of the native population. Three hundred years is just too much time to go by without mixing with the locals. And I would also expect to find linguistic traces in the native languages. If nothing like this were forthcoming, while my hypothesis wouldn't be conclusively disproved, any explanation of such a profound lack of evidence would probably be pretty contrived. (Coyote, please correct me if this isn't the sort of supporting evidence needed to substantiate this sort of claim.)
So let's ask again: if the Biblical account of the Exodus were substantially correct, what physical evidence should we be able to find that could be explained no other way (or at least not without straining credibility)?
Zen, you're not making a lot of sense here with your Norseman/300yr analogy. It's not analogous being your example depicts a people in one location for centuries.
1) The Exodus path in question was days not years and their wanderings in Arabia was 40 years, no lengthy times in one location.
2) They had no crops and like wandering Gypsies, left no lasting evidence behind other than what has been cited respective to the markings of bulls etc in the region of the mountain below which bull worship allegedly took place.
3) I've cited a list of visible evidences. What more do you expect?
4) We know the Jews, after having been dispersed globally for nearly 2 millenniums have returned to their homeland still identified as Jews. What makes you think that in 40 years of wandering the Jews who, according to the record moved about in one group would have integrated with the locals?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by ZenMonkey, posted 03-16-2010 1:37 AM ZenMonkey has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Apothecus, posted 03-16-2010 3:21 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 348 (550547)
03-16-2010 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by PaulK
03-15-2010 8:03 PM


Re: Yah, and the debate goes on numerous reputable scientists on both sides of the debats
PaulK writes:
My understanding is that even Wyatt's supporters did not claim that it was actually burnt.
And making dubious accusations about the Saudis (who would want to see the great prophet Moses honoured and would likely be very happy if Wyatt's ideas were proved) doesn't really help much.
At any rate it is unusual. Moller, et al claim it is not lava rock. I assume they assertained that from some available data. The alleged burning was from a supernatural source which perhaps penetrated into the soil and rocks to a very hot temperature.
The significance relative to evidence is that it matches up nicely with the other corrobrative evidence necessary to lend support to the account.
PaulK writes:
Buzsaw writes:
LOL on this one, Paul. It was the land of Midian which is on the east side of the Gulf of Aqaba where the OT text says Moses met with his father in law, Jethro, priest of Midian. It all jives nicely with both OT and NT.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where does it say that they met in Midian ? (Aside of the time of Moses exile BEFORE he returned to Egypt).
Exodus 18 tells how they met in the wilderness after the crossing to Midian in Arabia where Jethro lived.
Exodus 18:1-12 (ASV)
1 Now Jethro, the priest of Midian, Moses father-in-law, heard of all that God had done for Moses, and for Israel his people, how that Jehovah had brought Israel out of Egypt. 2 And Jethro, Moses father-in-law, took Zipporah, Moses wife, after he had sent her away, 3 and her two sons; of whom the name of the one was Gershom; for he said, I have been a sojourner in a foreign land: 4 and the name of the other was Eliezer; for he said , The God of my father was my help, and delivered me from the sword of Pharaoh.
5 And Jethro, Moses father-in-law, came with his sons and his wife unto Moses into the wilderness where he was encamped, at the mount of God: 6 and he said unto Moses, I, thy father-in-law Jethro, am come unto thee, and thy wife, and her two sons with her. 7 And Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and did obeisance, and kissed him: and they asked each other of their welfare; and they came into the tent. 8 And Moses told his father-in-law all that Jehovah had done unto Pharaoh and to the Egyptians for Israel's sake, all the travail that had come upon them by the way, and how Jehovah delivered them. 9 And Jethro rejoiced for all the goodness which Jehovah had done to Israel, in that he had delivered them out of the hand of the Egyptians. 10 And Jethro said, Blessed be Jehovah, who hath delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians, and out of the hand of Pharaoh; who hath delivered the people from under the hand of the Egyptians. 11 Now I know that Jehovah is greater than all gods; yea, in the thing wherein they dealt proudly against them. 12 And Jethro, Moses father-in-law, took a burnt-offering and sacrifices for God: and Aaron came, and all the elders of Israel, to eat bread with Moses father-in-law before God.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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 Message 43 by PaulK, posted 03-15-2010 8:03 PM PaulK has replied

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 348 (550574)
03-16-2010 12:54 PM


Incessantly Denying The Evidence
Paulk and Huntard, you both miss the importance of corroboration. These observable things are all corroborating one another. As per the the record, these evidences should line up in the right sequence. The important thing about the mountain is that it's top is black and that it follows in line with the bull inscriptions, the split rock, the unusual chariot like formations in the sea, the relatively shallow area of the sea in which they were sited, the beach, surrounded by mountains with a way in but no escape route out, and the land of Midian to where the record says they would meet Jethro. The other corroborating ducts perfectly alligned in the right secquence is supportive that the black mountain top could likely have been burned as per the record. Regardless of how you rate the evidence, it is, in fact part and parcel of the aggregate evidence. You people insist on throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
You people, et al evolutionists and BBists, don't have all of your ducks lined up perfectly and verifiable either. You have your weak and your strong arguments, just as I do here. By the way you are acting here, I could say where's your actual observable evidence that alleged scientific abiogenesis is the explanation for life origin? That's totally not observable physically with the naked eye, whereas all of the corroborating evidence ducks lined up perfectly which I have cited relative to the Exodus. Come on. Let's be fair, balanced and reasonable in demanding evidence.
If you choose not to ascribe to the evidence, fine, but don't incessantly keep on falsly arguing that Moller, Wyatt, et al's research has produced no evidence whatsoever.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 348 (550604)
03-16-2010 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Apothecus
03-16-2010 3:21 PM


Re: Jews In Egypt, Etc
Apothecus writes:
ZenMonkey can correct me if I'm wrong, but since he hasn't responded to your post, perhaps I can attempt to clarify his what I think his position may be.
I believe he's referring not to evidence (or lack thereof) for the actual Red Sea crossing, but for evidence (or lack thereof) for a large number of Hebrews inhabiting what would be, for all intents and purposes, a large chunk of Egypt for 400-odd years. Should we not find some trinket, pottery, etc. unique to the ancient Israelites in some area of Egypt, if a unique people occupied a certain area for this long? Should there not be some record of this captivity in Egyptian records of the day? Should there not be some Egyptian cultural influence on the culture of their captives? Something? Anything?
I think he's drawing the parallel to what we should find (and do, in many cases) if a large group of non-native peoples (aka Norsemen) occupies an area not intrinsic to that people's culture
Hi Apothecus. There has been a lot of debate as to who the Hyksos were and other stuff relative what you allude. I'm not sure anything conclusive can be claimed on that count. We do know that there was a significant number of aliens in Egypt. The question is who they were Again I go right back to the fact that the more corroborative evidence that can be cited, the more credible becomes the likelihood that the foreign constituency in Egypt were the Jews.
The Jews came from some location. Why not Egypt? There's no other viable option, so far as I'm aware. They surely didn't disembark from an alien space craft into Caanan as an army capable of defeating a number of pagan kingdoms.
My main purpose here is to cite what evidence corroborates the Biblical account. Imo, it's siginificant. Each must decide for themselves as to their evaluation of the evidence cited.
I want to soon elaborate more on the Ezekiel and Zechariah
prophecies relative to the present occupation of Jews in their land after all of these centuries in dispersement. See, as for the reliability of the Biblical record, there's a whole lot of various corroborating stuff. It's not just the Exodus. The more aggregate stuff you collect, the more each lends corroborative support to the other and to the Biblical record as a whole.
Imo, it's outright disengenuous for secular humanists here at EvC to keep on keeping on alleging that there's no scientific evidence for the Biblical record. That's just not the case and I hope to cite more of it before this thread is finished.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Apothecus, posted 03-16-2010 3:21 PM Apothecus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by PaulK, posted 03-16-2010 7:03 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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