Evidence for the Biblical Record

Good job on the OP, Zen. I appreciate that you have enough interest to open this topic. I agree that the Biblical corroborating evidence must involve physical observation and not simply Bible corroborating Bible.So far as the prophecies and some other evidence, it mayl be necessary to cite various Biblical corroborating texts so as to verify what is being prophesied etc.Most of the evidence which I've alluded to has been cited and debated over the years available here and there in the archives. Perhaps this thread will be useful so as to update and collect it into one thread.Just as is the case with some science issues, some evidences are more empirical and falsifiable than others.It must be understood that all physical evidence supportive to the Biblical record becomes necessarily supportive to personal non-falsifiable experience only for the one/ones involved with experience.. In other words, according to the Bible, all who call upon God and become his follower will become enlightened via receiving and believing and receiving Jesus God's son. One thus receives the spirit of Jesus and of God the father, i.e. the Holy Spirit. Certain gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit, coupled with corroborating physical evidence work together so as to effect faith. To the ones who draw close to God, such personal evidences such as phenomenal answers to prayer, phenomenal circumstances miracles, etc, work to enforce and corroborate the physical evidences.I know that personal unverifiable experience is not what this thread is about. The sole reason for citing them is to say that these experiences (for the believer) substantially enforce and corroborate the physical evidences which will be cited in this thread.I'll begin my case with some of the evidences which I've cited in an archived thread linked below. Perhaps from this list some members, pro or con, may wish to make comments.I see PaulK has already touched on a couple, but that's about all PaulK ever does is touch on, or perhaps kick the thorns, glibly alleging that there is nothing, no matter how much the evidence, verifiable in the Bible relative to miracle. I've pretty much given up on responding to the same oles from members like PaulK, so I suggest if you want responses from me, allow me the same consideration that you require from me in attempting to refute. As I have always contended, it's not that each of the above proves the Biblical record, but that when you corroborate all of these, not to mention many other evidences which I've not cited, you have evidences supportive to the inspiration of the Biblical record. There are arguments pro and con for some of the above, but the more corroboration you have for any ideology, the more credible the ideology becomes.There are pro and con arguments to all ideologies, but the folks here at EvC, for the most part tend to refuse acknowledgement of the corroborative pro arguments which are supportive to the Biblical record.
EvC Forum: Anything Divine in the Bible?ABE) Item 2; make that lack of evolution transitional fossils. There should be far more than the few questionable ones claimed. Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.Edited by Buzsaw, : note addition to original textEdited by Buzsaw, : Tidy up message

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

If I may interject for ICANT, perhaps as the thread progresses, some evidences will be aired.

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Hi Zen Monkey. LOL.1) Where did you get your photo of the alleged wheel? I suggest that the reader/viewer use the World Daily News link which you cited to see a better photo of the one you put up. Yours does not depict the protruding axle.2) Obviously World Daily News is a highly biased non-objective source of information on this.A) They failed to report the major scientific research and photography done at this site by Swedish marine biologist Lennart Moller who sailed his scientific marine research equipped ocean craft into the region and used his underwater photography equipment to photograph the region,B) The World Daily report cited just one of the numerous formations, some of which were better specimens of chariot like wheel and axle.C) The World Daily report failed to cite the corroborating evidence in the region and the Biblical record compatible description of the topography of the path which the Exodus followed.E) The World Daily failed to report that such coral formations were not common in the region.F) World Daily did not mention the same kind of underwater evidence which was found on the Saudi side opposite of Nuweiba Beach. This was done by a woman researcher, if I recall correctly. I'll see if I can get that.3. Imo, unfortunately, ICR (Institute For Creation Research) who's John Morris Sr has not bought into the Nuweiba site appears to have little interest in researching the site due to their own axe to grind. Morris has made some expeditions into the traditional Sinai Penninsula alleged Mt Sinai, claiming that that is the only viable location of the Biblical account, in spite of the fact that the NT of the Bible states that Mt Sinai is in Arabia.I have great regard for much of the work of ICR, but all I can figure out of this is that they don't want to debunk all of their own literature and position on this. They appear to have some of the same non-objective attitude that secularist folks like National Geographic have.I haven't yet put my mind into bringing up images in my messages, but I'll see if I can get up a link or two with some better info than World Daily has produced on this. There's a lot more to this than WD News has admitted to, whether of ignorance or purposefully.I have Lennart Moller's excellent EXODUS VIDEO and his book THE EXODUS STORY. I first got interested in this account way back in the 1980s or so when I met Ron Wyatt and attended his lecture and slide show of his 17 expeditions into the Ararat Mountain area relative to Noah's Ark and into this Nuweiba Beach area.More on this later.

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Thanks for being patient, Zen. It's hit and miss with the computer in my busy life.I suggest you take about half an hour and watch this video from the Wyatt site. Towards the end of it several alleged coral encased wheels will be shown, but one really should view the whole thing so as to see why the late Ron Wyatt, Moller and others consider it to be scientific evidence. There are other short interviews with Moller by various hosts available on other web sites so as to help understand why he, the scientist spent $$, time at some risk to do the research. One of those interviews is and interesting one of Moller with Israel's Prime Minister, Benyamin Netanyahu.Red Sea Crossing

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

The dating is debatable. It is not uncommon for Kings to skew dates, obscure and/or erase evidence of defeat in order that enemies would not discover weakness and other reasons. That has not been verified because the Saudi's do no allow access to it by researchers. It must be understood that any research in the region is risky and dangerous, given the Muslim Saudis have no desire to support the Biblical record relative to anything supportive to Israel and Jews. LOL on this one, Paul. It was the land of Midian which is on the east side of the Gulf of Aqaba where the OT text says Moses met with his father in law, Jethro, priest of Midian. It all jives nicely with both OT and NT. Paul, you need to understand:
1) That though there may be an occasional spit rock in various locations, this spiit rock has a dry bed flow evidence of a significant flow of water, enough to cut a stream. There would be no reason for a stream flowing from this relatively small rising other than a flow of water from the crack in the rock.
2. This unusual phenomenon just happens to be in prezactly the right location needful for corroborating the Nuweiba site where the wheel and axle shaped formations were photographed. And a host of creationists aren't buying the relative scanty allegements of species transional evidence. We maintain that there should be a great abundance of transitionals from numerous stages of transition. Yah, and the debate goes on numerous reputable scientists on both sides of the debate. Here you show either your ignorance or your deliberate choice to sweep under the proverbial rug all of the data in these chapters which obviously allude to a future time. This all corroborates with Jesus's prophecy that Jerusalem would be occupied by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled.Paul you keep on ignoring my citing significance of the Six Day War
when Jews restored occupation and control of the old walled city just as prophesied By Ezekiel, Jesus and other prophets. This all corroborates the futuristic understanding of Ezekiel 38 and explains the stuff in those chapters which in no way applied to ancient events.Paul, this is what I mean about the uselessness of debating with you on anything smacking of miracle. You wouldn't acknowledge it if it if it were able to bite your butt. The biggy divine part in question here is the divine fulfillment of prophecy. The odds of a tiny nation of identifiable people being scattered globally for nearly two millenniums and return as as the same identifiable people would be beyond realistic calculation. The important thing relatively to the prophecy is that the Semetic Gentiles that occupy the land of Edom, being the very location of the Semetic descendents of Hagar, and Esau who are claiming two nations i.e. their own and Israel's as per the prophecy in Ezekiel 35:10, the prophecy concerning Edom. The primary people cited in these prophecies is Judah and Ephraim. The significant thing is that it will be restored as one nation and not two as was the case in ancient days. Though the Israel/Ethiopia relations have been relatively good, there have, according to the Wiki link below been shaky times when relations have been broken or in question due to pressure from the Arab block nations.One significant thing here relative to this Ethiopean phenomenon is that there have been and are still these Beta Israelite Jews in Etheopia. Imo, for the sake of these, God has had a hand in this arrangement. Many have been allowed to migrate to Israel. Imo by the time of Armageddon Etheopia will be solidly alligned with Israel's enemies as prophesied.Gotta run to an appointment for now.Ethiopia—Israel relations - Wikipedia

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

You do know that preaching or teaching Bible is forbidden in Saudi Arabia, Indonesia and other Muslim nations?

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

1. The hypothesis of the research begun was the Biblical description of what should be evidenced.
2. The Biblical description required the following:
A. A route towards Midian in Arabia in the region of Jethro, Moses's father in law.
B. A route that would lead to entrapment, but large enough area to accomodate a large number of people at the shore of the crossing.
C A route that would lead to an area where a pillar was erected.
D A route that would lead to a mountain showing evidence of being burnt at some time.
F. A route that would lead to a crossing where some evidence of chariot debris might be found.
G. A route that would lead to a crossing which on the other side would be a split rock and evidence of a water flow from the rock.
H. A route that perhaps would be evidence of bull worship inscriptions.
I. A region where an oasis of water and greenery might be found some distant inland. Check.The corroborating evidence listed above lends support to the wheel and axle shaped formations in the most shallow area of the whole Red Sea, including the gulf. No? Huntard, et al, scientist Lennart Moller takes the position that here's the evidence. Let the evidence speak for itself and let each decide for themselves about the evidence. That's how science works. Regardless of your assessment of the evidence, it is bonafide scientific evidence for evaluation, i.e. bonafide creation science.

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Theodoric, to be fair, your source is a blogger's statement. I cannot imagine a marine scientist making such a claim.

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Mohammed picked and chose whatever suited his desires what he wanted from the Bible, but I know of no Islamic nation which looks favorably on the Bible, including Indonesia where Biblical churches and people often are persecuted and have their churches attacked and destroyed.

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This thread is about evidence. Your source served to obfuscate the evidence, leaving the impression to the reader that Moller et al were the idiots.

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

I don't know about the details of the alleged gold veneered wheel. I tend to go with what Moller, the scientist concludes than Wyatt. Nevertheless, you can't just discard all of the other evidences on a few of the questionables, imo.Your site states that coral are often wheel shaped. However, if you google up some coral reefs, you don't see scattered wheel shaped corals void of much else in the area of them as you see here. I viewed some reefs and saw nothing like what we have here, isolated formations on top of a sand bar in line with the corroborated path of the alleged Exodus.

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Zen, you're not making a lot of sense here with your Norseman/300yr analogy. It's not analogous being your example depicts a people in one location for centuries.1) The Exodus path in question was days not years and their wanderings in Arabia was 40 years, no lengthy times in one location.2) They had no crops and like wandering Gypsies, left no lasting evidence behind other than what has been cited respective to the markings of bulls etc in the region of the mountain below which bull worship allegedly took place.3) I've cited a list of visible evidences. What more do you expect?4) We know the Jews, after having been dispersed globally for nearly 2 millenniums have returned to their homeland still identified as Jews. What makes you think that in 40 years of wandering the Jews who, according to the record moved about in one group would have integrated with the locals?

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

At any rate it is unusual. Moller, et al claim it is not lava rock. I assume they assertained that from some available data. The alleged burning was from a supernatural source which perhaps penetrated into the soil and rocks to a very hot temperature.The significance relative to evidence is that it matches up nicely with the other corrobrative evidence necessary to lend support to the account. Exodus 18 tells how they met in the wilderness after the crossing to Midian in Arabia where Jethro lived.Exodus 18:1-12 (ASV)

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Paulk and Huntard, you both miss the importance of corroboration. These observable things are all corroborating one another. As per the the record, these evidences should line up in the right sequence. The important thing about the mountain is that it's top is black and that it follows in line with the bull inscriptions, the split rock, the unusual chariot like formations in the sea, the relatively shallow area of the sea in which they were sited, the beach, surrounded by mountains with a way in but no escape route out, and the land of Midian to where the record says they would meet Jethro. The other corroborating ducts perfectly alligned in the right secquence is supportive that the black mountain top could likely have been burned as per the record. Regardless of how you rate the evidence, it is, in fact part and parcel of the aggregate evidence. You people insist on throwing the baby out with the bathwater.You people, et al evolutionists and BBists, don't have all of your ducks lined up perfectly and verifiable either. You have your weak and your strong arguments, just as I do here. By the way you are acting here, I could say where's your actual observable evidence that alleged scientific abiogenesis is the explanation for life origin? That's totally not observable physically with the naked eye, whereas all of the corroborating evidence ducks lined up perfectly which I have cited relative to the Exodus. Come on. Let's be fair, balanced and reasonable in demanding evidence.If you choose not to ascribe to the evidence, fine, but don't incessantly keep on falsly arguing that Moller, Wyatt, et al's research has produced no evidence whatsoever.

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Hi Apothecus. There has been a lot of debate as to who the Hyksos were and other stuff relative what you allude. I'm not sure anything conclusive can be claimed on that count. We do know that there was a significant number of aliens in Egypt. The question is who they were Again I go right back to the fact that the more corroborative evidence that can be cited, the more credible becomes the likelihood that the foreign constituency in Egypt were the Jews.The Jews came from some location. Why not Egypt? There's no other viable option, so far as I'm aware. They surely didn't disembark from an alien space craft into Caanan as an army capable of defeating a number of pagan kingdoms.My main purpose here is to cite what evidence corroborates the Biblical account. Imo, it's siginificant. Each must decide for themselves as to their evaluation of the evidence cited.I want to soon elaborate more on the Ezekiel and Zechariah
prophecies relative to the present occupation of Jews in their land after all of these centuries in dispersement. See, as for the reliability of the Biblical record, there's a whole lot of various corroborating stuff. It's not just the Exodus. The more aggregate stuff you collect, the more each lends corroborative support to the other and to the Biblical record as a whole.Imo, it's outright disengenuous for secular humanists here at EvC to keep on keeping on alleging that there's no scientific evidence for the Biblical record. That's just not the case and I hope to cite more of it before this thread is finished.

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.