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Author Topic:   Evidence for the Biblical Record
Peg
Member (Idle past 5036 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 30 of 348 (550473)
03-15-2010 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ZenMonkey
03-14-2010 12:28 AM


Hi Zen,
great topic.
ZenMonkey writes:
Claims to Biblical accuracy have to meet both criteria, just like any other factual claim does. For one, you can't use the Bible to corraborate other claims in the Bible, just like I can't use my own diary to support my claim that I smoked herb with Abbie Hoffman at Woodstock. Me agreeing with myself doesn't prove anything.
the only problem with this is that the bible wasnt written by one person. It was written by 40 different individuals over a period of 1600 years
these writings were then collected together and when compared, they proved to corroborate each other....even though some lived several hundreds of years apart. The canon is based on those writings that are in harmony and complementary of each other. They were also only put into the canon if the history they contained was accurate.
So you cant look at the bible as a novel.
ZenMonkey writes:
So I'd like some specifics. What factual claims are being made about the Bible for which someone has independent evidence that isn't trivial?
The prophecies of the bible prove it to be true. It was actually when prophecy was fulfilled that the isrealites knew who the true prophets of God were and so these prophets were held in high esteem and their writings preserved.
The archeological evidence that has been discovered has added weight to the fact that the bible was recording the events of real places and real people. The kings of the nations it mentions have been confirmed by archeology, the customs of the various nations has been confirmed and even the building work and landmarks mentioned in the bible have been discovered by archeology.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ZenMonkey, posted 03-14-2010 12:28 AM ZenMonkey has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Theodoric, posted 03-15-2010 6:36 PM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 5036 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 32 of 348 (550475)
03-15-2010 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by ZenMonkey
03-14-2010 12:50 PM


Re: For the sake of sanity.
ZenMonkey writes:
I'll suggest that maybe it would be wise to pick one extraordinary claim that hasn't been beaten to death - the Tower of Babel, something like that
Nimrod did exist. He is mentioned in Arabic traditions as Nimrud or Nimroud. In the Sumerian-Akkadian didactic poems report his heroic deeds. And Jewish historian Josephus refers to him by name.
while its true that archaeologists have been unable to identify ancient ruins as definitely being Nimrod’s Tower of Babel, they have found over two dozen similar structures in Mesopotamia.
the German archaeologist Walter Andrae did extensive digging in this area at the beginning of the 20th century. he found evidence of these towers (known as ziggurats) with a shrine at the top which supported a gate. these gates were said to be the entry point where God decended to earth. This is interesting because the name Babel is derived from the words Bab, meaning gate and ilu meaning God. therefore the city was a place where God could ascend and decend to the earth.
If the story in the bible about the Tower of Babel was nothing more then a myth, then surely they wouldn't have archeological evidence for it. It was much more then a myth...it was a real place with real people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by ZenMonkey, posted 03-14-2010 12:50 PM ZenMonkey has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by lyx2no, posted 03-15-2010 7:01 PM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 5036 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 33 of 348 (550476)
03-15-2010 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Theodoric
03-15-2010 6:36 PM


Re: In that case
Theodoric writes:
How about the "The DaVinci Code"? That is so full of real people and places it must be practically scripture.
Your logic is flawed to the point that it is ludicrous.
So is yours.
we also have non-fiction writers in the world today... according to your reasoning, we should assume that there is only fiction in this world.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Theodoric, posted 03-15-2010 6:36 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Theodoric, posted 03-15-2010 6:53 PM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 5036 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 35 of 348 (550479)
03-15-2010 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by ZenMonkey
03-14-2010 9:28 PM


Re: For the sake of sanity.
The existence of the universe is only evidence that the universe exists.
a house in the middle of the desert is also evidence that a house exists...
we dont assume that its existence doesnt prove that it had a builder... reason tells us that it had a builder
Unless of course you believe that ALL matter comes together without direction?
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by ZenMonkey, posted 03-14-2010 9:28 PM ZenMonkey has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 5036 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 38 of 348 (550482)
03-15-2010 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Theodoric
03-15-2010 6:53 PM


Re: In that case
theodoric writes:
But you have no evidence yours is not fiction.
the bible records historical events that are confirmed by secular sources
such as the destruction of Babylon... the city is still laying in ruins today
the invasion of the Nebudcannezza into jerusalem...the kings of Judah being taken captive into foreign nations
Cyrus the great releasing jews from captivity
Alexander the Great conquering the world of his time, his untimely death and his kingdom being divided among his 4 generals
the rise of the roman world empire, the fall of the roman empire
Seriously... no historical evidence my foot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Theodoric, posted 03-15-2010 6:53 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 5036 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 40 of 348 (550484)
03-15-2010 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by lyx2no
03-15-2010 7:01 PM


Re: For the sake of sanity.
lyx2no writes:
I'm fairly sure that everyone will concede that there were people and towns in the olden days. It's the magic acts that need confirmation. Do you have any evidence for them?
I cant prove the miracles to you just as I cannot prove them to myself. But its the testimonial evidence of eye witnesses that convince me of their truthfulness.
The fact that the bible is a book of truth, of reliable history, of accurate prophecy adds weight to the words of the people who witnessed the miracles and wrote about them.
But i've got that confidence only because i've studied the bible... i can understand how someone who perhaps hasnt studied it might be skeptical.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by lyx2no, posted 03-15-2010 7:01 PM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Theodoric, posted 03-15-2010 7:23 PM Peg has replied
 Message 58 by lyx2no, posted 03-16-2010 12:10 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 5036 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 42 of 348 (550486)
03-15-2010 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Theodoric
03-15-2010 7:23 PM


Re: For the sake of sanity.
Theodoric writes:
We have discussed your examples of prophecy in the past. They do not pass the sniff test.
the only way they can be refuted is by sceptics claiming that it was written after the fact... or added in later
Remember the book of Daniel... oh yeah! That was a complete forgery written in the 1st century LOL
If the only way a prophecy can be disproved is by claiming that it was added in later, then i dont think your analysis passes the sniff test.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Theodoric, posted 03-15-2010 7:23 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-16-2010 1:04 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 5036 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


(1)
Message 120 of 348 (550731)
03-17-2010 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Buzsaw
03-17-2010 11:30 AM


Re: Techy Evidence
Buz,
Buzsaw writes:
Perhaps it's time to move on to some more of the corroborating evidences of the veracity of the Biblical record; prophecies relative to modern technology.
Prophet John; NT; you read it first in your Bible; technology of television prophesied 2 milleniums before the fact:
Revelation 11 (ASV)
i think you are taking it a bit far to say that prophecy in Rev is refering to televisions
I can see why you might put it to television, but i dont believe that's got anythign to do with televisions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Buzsaw, posted 03-17-2010 11:30 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Buzsaw, posted 03-17-2010 10:29 PM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 5036 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 132 of 348 (550756)
03-17-2010 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Buzsaw
03-17-2010 10:29 PM


Re: Techy Evidence, Etc
Buzsaw writes:
Here it is, Peg, et al. Read carefully and thoughtfully. The empire has made/manufactured/built (whatever terminology you want to use) a speaking image which all of the nations tribes and tongues are forced to worship or be killed.
Now put on your thinking caps on, class, and tell me how the government could enforce all of the nations tribes and tongues and tongues to worship a speaking image?
The image could actually be a world wide political organization....one that is represented by every nation.
If you think back to Daniels prophecy, which is similar in terms of wild beasts being mentioned, you'll see that the angel tells Daniel that the beasts represented political figures. Alexander the Great was the hairy he goat and the 2 horned ram was the empires of Mede's and Persians (a dual empire)
Why would revelations beasts be any different to political entities?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Buzsaw, posted 03-17-2010 10:29 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Buzsaw, posted 03-18-2010 12:00 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 5036 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 137 of 348 (550765)
03-18-2010 2:06 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Buzsaw
03-18-2010 12:00 AM


Re: Techy Evidence, Etc
Buzsaw writes:
As per your message, I'll ask you; what's your thoughts relative to the 10 horned beast implenting marks and numbers for a global monetary system to be globally enforced?
Regarding the beast of Revelation 13:1, 2, The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible points out that it combines in itself the joint characteristics of the four beasts of Daniel’s vision ... Accordingly, this first beast [of Revelation] represents the combined forces of all political rule opposed to God in the world.
The only thing in this world that hold authority over people, is government. That is also borne out by Revelation 13:7, which says of the beast: Authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.
Its the entire political system of the world.

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 Message 134 by Buzsaw, posted 03-18-2010 12:00 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 5036 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 158 of 348 (550960)
03-19-2010 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by ZenMonkey
03-19-2010 12:02 AM


Re: Denial Of The Evidence
ZenMonkey writes:
How about showing how worldwide language dispersal patterns are clear indications that the story of the Tower of Babel is based on fact?
The story of Babel most certainly is based on fact which is confirmed by history, archaeology and folklore.
North of the Marduk temple in Babylon once stood a huge tower, and in this area archaeologist George Smith discovered a tablet with an account about the confusion of languages. The table reads in part: The building of this illustrious tower offended the gods. In a night they threw down what they had built. They scattered them abroad, and made strange their speech. Their progress they impeded. This wasnt a bible tablet, it was a babylonian one.
And the folklore found in various nations provide further evidence that the story was not only a bible story because many of these nations did not have the bible.
The Encyclop—dia Britannica, Vol. 2, p. 839 writes:
Versions have been recorded from near the Zambezi and also from Ashanti; among some of the Tibeto-Burman peoples of Assam the story of a tower and confusion of speech is found. Similar tales are found in Mexico.
These tower stories do vary among themselves, but the fact that they all say there was a tower and that men’s tongues were changed is noteworthy and gives the authentic Bible record support.
Modern linguists have also created a chart of human language and they've found there there are parent languges from which all other languages are derived. This is in harmony with the bible account.
Here is some more info which shows that the evidence is against any evolutionary origin of speech or of ancient languages:
The New Encyclopaedia Britannica (1985, Vol. 22, p. 567) writes:
The earliest records of written language, the only linguistic fossils man can hope to have, go back no more than about 4,000 or 5,000 years.
An article in Science Illustrated of July 1948 (p. 63) writes:
Older forms of the languages known today were far more difficult than their modern descendants ... man appears not to have begun with a simple speech, and gradually made it more complex, but rather to have gotten hold of a tremendously knotty speech somewhere in the unrecorded past, and gradually simplified it to the modern forms.
Linguist Dr.Mason (Science News Letter, September 3, 1955, p. 148) writes:
the idea that ‘savages’ speak in a series of grunts, and are unable to express many ‘civilized’ concepts, is very wrong, and that many of the languages of non-literate peoples are far more complex than modern European ones.
ZenMonkey writes:
Independent historical records that validate the rule of King David? All fair game. Whatcha got?
Before 1993, there was no proof outside the Bible to support the historicity of David but in 1993 archaeologists uncovered a basalt stone called the Tel Dan Stele, dating back to the 9th Century B.C. that experts say bears the words House of David and king of Israel.
the thing about this stone is that it wasnt made by the isrealites but is actually a victory monument erected by the Aramaeans.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by ZenMonkey, posted 03-19-2010 12:02 AM ZenMonkey has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by hooah212002, posted 03-20-2010 12:06 AM Peg has replied
 Message 160 by bluescat48, posted 03-20-2010 12:19 AM Peg has replied
 Message 164 by anglagard, posted 03-20-2010 12:48 AM Peg has replied
 Message 168 by Theodoric, posted 03-20-2010 4:22 AM Peg has replied
 Message 193 by Otto Tellick, posted 03-22-2010 1:18 AM Peg has replied
 Message 274 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-29-2010 1:45 PM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 5036 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 161 of 348 (550964)
03-20-2010 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by hooah212002
03-20-2010 12:06 AM


Re: Denial Of The Evidence
hooah212002 writes:
Source Peg? You didn't pull it from Wiki Answers, did you? funny how it is WORDED EXACTLY THE SAME. For shame. Such dishonesty. Let me see what else I can dig up from your post. Should I bother?
Well i certainly didnt make it up myself.
The evidence is out there and its just funny that when such evidence is hightlighted, the focus suddenly shifts to the dishonesty in where it came from.
I'm not George Smith, so does that mean that i cant use his discoveries to provide someone with the evidence they seek??

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by hooah212002, posted 03-20-2010 12:06 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by hooah212002, posted 03-20-2010 12:40 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 5036 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 162 of 348 (550965)
03-20-2010 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by bluescat48
03-20-2010 12:19 AM


Re: Denial Of The Evidence
bluescat48 writes:
Which just shows where Israel stole the Babel story from, the Babylonians who were no more advanced in humanism & science than were the Israelites. Mythology is mythology no matter where the source is.
They didnt 'steal' anything. The isrealites were not the only nation involved when the languages were confused so its only natural that many different nations have the same story.
It actually proves the so called 'myth' rather then disproves it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by bluescat48, posted 03-20-2010 12:19 AM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by bluescat48, posted 03-20-2010 8:16 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 5036 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 166 of 348 (550978)
03-20-2010 3:57 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by hooah212002
03-20-2010 12:40 AM


Re: Denial Of The Evidence
hooah212002 writes:
No, Peg. You pulled an answer from Wiki Answers, then claimed you got it from the Encyclopedia. THAT is dishonest. Do you have an encyclopedia to verify this fact? How can we be sure you aren't quote mining (which you've been prone to do in the past)?
I pulled it from wiki did I? Then i claimed that it was from an encyclopedia??
if you are refering to the George Smith quote, it comes from his book 'the chaldean account of creation' and many people use it because its a fairly important discovery with regard to the tower of bable... its evidence outside of a biblical source as was requested by ZenMonkey.
If you are refering to the other quotes that actually have the encyclopedia cited with page and paragraphs, then they are from the encylopedia and if you dont believe me you can simply use the citation i gave to confirm it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by hooah212002, posted 03-20-2010 12:40 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by hooah212002, posted 03-20-2010 5:52 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 5036 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 167 of 348 (550979)
03-20-2010 4:07 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by anglagard
03-20-2010 12:48 AM


Re: Denial Of The Evidence
anglagard writes:
For just one single example, Euskara, the ancient language still spoken by some Basques, no prior root language has even remotely been agreed upon by any purported 'modern linguists.'
and this does not present a problem for the biblical account of the confusion of languages because according to Genesis, completely new languages were given to the people. We should see completely unrelated languages in the world and the fact that we do adds weight to the bibles account of how they got here.
anglagard writes:
I can come up with other examples but even just one refutes your assertion.
how in the world did you conclude that my assertion that all languages can be traced to a parent language are false? According to the genesis account, there should be several parent languages....which there are.
aside from the fact that not all linguists agree with the basque language hypotheses (likely because they just dont have enough information yet) what makes impossible that it itself is not a parent language?
anglagard writes:
Remember you have been shown your statement is false, but that may be due to ignorance of fact. However, if you later willfully repeat the same statement after being shown it is false, you will be guilty of violating God's Commandment against bearing false witness.
Hahahaha thats funny.
Can you prove that the hypothoses about the basque language is true? I dont think so. So its a bit of a stretch to claim victory with the example you've given.
but if it makes you feel better, ok, you win.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by anglagard, posted 03-20-2010 12:48 AM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by anglagard, posted 03-21-2010 1:38 AM Peg has replied
 Message 180 by ZenMonkey, posted 03-21-2010 2:29 AM Peg has not replied

  
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