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Author Topic:   Foul Tasting Bugs
dwise1
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Posts: 5952
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 22 of 47 (550697)
03-17-2010 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Dr Jack
03-17-2010 5:50 AM


Re: evolution is in populations not in individuals
RAZD claims neutral drift; I make a different claim. Exaptation: foul tasting chemicals emerged not because they were foul tasting but because they performed some other function in the organism and just happened to also be foul tasting.
Agreed. While new traits can arise and establish themselves via neutral drift, it is also very often the case that an existing trait take on a new function.
From "The Bombardier Beetle Myth Exploded" by Christopher Gregory Weber, Creation Evolution Journal 1:3, Winter 1981, pp 1-5 (reprinted at The Bombardier Beetle Myth Exploded | National Center for Science Education):
quote:
As Thomas Eisner shows in his article "Chemical Defense Against Predation in Arthropods" (Chemical Ecology, 1970, pp. 157-215), hydrogen peroxide is a normal metabolic byproduct in insects, and various quinones are used to harden (or "sclerotinize") the cuticle of insects. All kinds of insects therefore secrete these chemicals. As a byproduct, hydroquinone tastes bad to predators and is the chemical that makes stink bugs stink. So, if an insect's cuticle became indented, forming little sacs to store some of this hydroquinone, it would have an advantage over its fellows even if its storage mechanism was not yet very efficient.
Schildknecht himself points out that the carabid family of beetles has little sacs like this. They have glands that exude enzymes into pygidial bladders that empty into the anus, even though these don't explode. So, even though the bombardier beetle is the only carabid beetle to shoot boiling liquid at its enemies, the other carabid beetles, living in different ecological niches, survive very well because, with their thick-walled little sacs, they can poison their enemies but not themselves.

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 Message 21 by Dr Jack, posted 03-17-2010 5:50 AM Dr Jack has seen this message but not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5952
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 47 of 47 (550922)
03-19-2010 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by InGodITrust
03-17-2010 2:58 PM


Re: evolution is in populations not in individuals
Well, you can probably see that I am hoping to find chinks in the armour of the ToE, and I haven't found one here. I don't really expect that I will ever find a chink myself, but I'm sure they exist, and will be discovered by scientists some day.
It would appear that you consider evolution to be a enemy which you want to fight. So why are you wasting your time and effort shooting blindly in the vain hope that you might possibly hit something ("chinks in the armour"), instead of carrying on the fight in an effective manner?
quote:
Sun Tzu, Scroll III (Offensive Strategy):


  1. Therefore I say: "Know the enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles
    you will never be in peril.
  2. When you are ignorant of the enemy but know yourself, your chances of
    winning or losing are equal.
  3. If ignorant both of your enemy and of yourself, you are certain in every
    battle to be in peril."


(Sun Tzu The Art of War, translation by Samuel B. Griffith, Oxford University Press, 1963)
In order to fight evolution, you must study evolution. Only then can you ever hope to know the enemy.
If you are a young-earth creationist, then you will also need to study the other sciences, including geology, astronomy, and physics. A side benefit to those studies is that they will enable you to examine and test creationist claims, thus leading you to also knowing yourself.
Quoting from memory from a radio newscast circa 1990, give or take half a decade, the then-Governor of Mississippi explaining why he was campaigning so hard for education reform in his state:
quote:
We know that ignorance doesn't work, because we've already tried it!
Since before I started studying "creation science" 30 years ago, creationists have steadfastly been trying ignorance. That practice of theirs was already long overdue for a change 40 years ago. Better late than never.
Percy;Msg#32 writes:
Scientists seek chinks in our understanding of the natural world and then work to resolve them.
I've displayed my tag lines in support of what Percy was telling. Scientists see a mystery and they seek to solve it, thus increasing our knowledge and understanding. Creationists see a mystery and proclaim it to be proof of God, so they instead seek to make it remain a mystery, thus ingraining ignorance more deeply.
As already pointed out, we've already tried ignorance, so we know that it doesn't work.

{When you search for God, y}ou can't go to the people who believe already. They've made up their minds and want to convince you of their own personal heresy.
("The Jehovah Contract", AKA "Der Jehova-Vertrag", by Viktor Koman, 1984)
Humans wrote the Bible; God wrote the world.
(from filk song "Word of God" by Dr. Catherine Faber, No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.echoschildren.org/CDlyrics/WORDGOD.HTML)
Of course, if Dr. Mortimer's surmise should be correct and we are dealing with forces outside the ordinary laws of Nature, there is an end of our investigation. But we are bound to exhaust all other hypotheses before falling back upon this one.
(Sherlock Holmes in The Hound of the Baskervilles)
Gentry's case depends upon his halos remaining a mystery. Once a naturalistic explanation is discovered, his claim of a supernatural origin is washed up. So he will not give aid or support to suggestions that might resolve the mystery. Science works toward an increase in knowledge; creationism depends upon a lack of it. Science promotes the open-ended search; creationism supports giving up and looking no further. It is clear which method Gentry advocates.
("Gentry's Tiny Mystery -- Unsupported by Geology" by J. Richard Wakefield, Creation/Evolution Issue XXII, Winter 1987-1988, pp 31-32)
It is a well-known fact that reality has a definite liberal bias.
Robert Colbert on NPR

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by InGodITrust, posted 03-17-2010 2:58 PM InGodITrust has not replied

  
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