Marriage – What is it and what’s the point?

I'd agree that it is definitely a form of cultural indoctrinization, but I'd stop short at drawing a parallel with religion. Maybe a closer comparison would be the sort of pressure a kid experiences who lives in say, a place like Warroad, MN. I will just barely toe the line at hyperbole to state that if you live in Warroad, MN, you will play hockey. Girls, boys, pets, it doesn't matter: hockey is Warroad's raison d'etre.Maybe this indoctrinization differs according to region -- I would think many more, shall we say, progressive areas would see less of this than somewhere like deepwoods Arkansas. Differing values...? Up here, I know of at least a few friends who were shamed by friends and family just because they decided to stay single into their 30s. It's like they were outcasts, destined to living their lives as spinsters.The remarkable part about these singles is that they seem to have the most fun of any group I know. Maybe coincidence, maybe not... Just my .02.Have a good one.

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"My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J.B.S Haldane 1892-1964

My single friends are the most miserable people I know. I have some friends in difficult marriages, but for the most part they are quite happier. Happier than they would be if single.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

How old are they? Are they lepers? I'm sure if they were 25 years old they would be loving it. Maybe you need younger friends. I LOVE being single. I was married, forget that noise. Every time I go hang with my married friends they get so happy when I show up. Then, they sit there drinking and smoking cigs venting to me how shitty their marriage is.I guess it all depends on point of view. From my angle, my age and the life I live, marriage would blow. For some it can fit in nicely.- Oni

I can think dozens and dozens of examples of people in both real life and popular fiction (tv, films, books) who have been told that their main aim in life must be to get married. They have been made to believe that is their aim in life, that it is a goal of social respectability and happiness, before they have ever even met anyone with whom they have a natural desire to share their life.In other words, a personal insecurity is artificially created in many people which they are led to believe can only be alleviated by getting married. Again, I know this from experience. I know of people (and it is usually women) who suffer terrible anxiety at the thought that they are not yet married, even when they are still in their teens or early 20s.Again, in my own situation, I have heard dozens of times people say to me "why have you never got married?"; "I can't understand why you're not married"; "it's such a shame you never got married". A shame!!! Never once has one of those people ever thought to ask me whether or not I've ever met someone with whom I have a mutual desire to share my life. Not once! Is it not patently obvious that those people have been indoctrinated to believe that marriage is THE WAY and that they are (probably unconsciously) attempting to indoctrinate me too?It's due to the way marriage is promoted that I believe many people rush into it (or are persuaded into it) far too quickly and easily.It is inconceivable to me that so many people would choose to have their relationship rubber-stamped by the authorities entirely on their own initiative.I know you enjoy my comparisons to religion, and again it is very similar. It is inconceivable that so many people around the world would just happen to follow the same religion as their parents entirely on their own initiative. They do so because they have been socially and even politically indoctrinated to believe that is the right and respectable way.

My single friends are happier than my married friends. They're even happier than some who have a relationship. And some who have a (relatively new, yes this is important) relationship are probably happiest. My married friends in absence of their spouses bitch and complain about their marriage.At the moment, I myself am single, and I really couldn't be happier at this point in my life.

I think I know the reason for the unhappiness. Let me guess, neither side wants to give up grounds.My wife and I are very happy with each other. I can't imagine living without someone like her at this point in my life. (And I'm also happy to say that I can finally tell people I'm in my late 20's... happy birthday to me.) I think the difference between us and most other couples is I'm actually a pretty cool person in real life (I know it's hard to imagine). When I get mad about something, I take a short drive around town. My wife is a brutally honest person. As an example, last time we visited her parents, her parents' internet router was acting up. I jokingly complained that their internet sucked. On our way back, she told me directly in a calm voice to never criticize anything about her parents' home again. I said ok.My observation of other couples is they tend to make a big deal out of nothing. Sometimes, we watch in amazement as other couples argue with each other over the tiniest things.IMHO, you have two choices about marriage: you could either make it a stressful experience or you could make it an enjoyable experience.Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

I heard it was: You can either be right, or you can be happy.

So because you can find anecdotes of people making idiot decisions about their lives we are supposed to swallow your assertion that people readily take WHO they marry as a secondary consideration?Show me that MOST people do this and I'll start to follow your argument. For the most part, my competing personal anecdotes are of people who got married because they honestly loved the person they were with. They were not a "secondary" consideration. Actually, anxiety about relationships is a natural response to our built in social nature. Human beings are for the most part a pair bonding species and both our culture and biology drive us to find companionship. You are just simply taking the slippery slop down the path toward claiming that such anxiety is a blemish on the particular type of pair bonding relationship that many people decide to engage in which is marriage.Even if there was no such thing as marriage, people would still have insecurity and anxiety about not being in a personally fulfilling relationship. This is evidenced exactly by the multitude of situations where these emotions exist in people who have no intention of getting married. Since you seem to have a tendency to see things in black and white, perhaps you missed the fact the people were saying those things to you exactly to mean that they hoped you would meet "someone with whom I have a mutual desire to share my life". Because marriage is a cultural thing, that is in fact what people mean when they ask that. Again I'll caveat that can probably find counter examples but I don't think the majority of cases where people are encouraged to find a spouse are motivated simply by the idea of marriage. Marriage is simply the culturally widespread mechanism by which our society implements pair bonding. Nobody is going to say, "I hope you find a long term girlfriend with whom you occasionally co-habitate to fulfill your natural desires for human companionship and to possible create offspring." Similarly it must be inconcievable to you that people around the world would just happen to follow the same political ideology as their parents entirely on their own initiative. They do so because they have been indoctrinated to believe that is the right and respectable way to govern a society.So is democracy a religion?

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If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

Well, me, too. But that phrase implies that your spouse is wrong but you're willing to admit fault just to keep the peace. I see it as demeaning.There are ways we can confront our spouses of their faults without stirring things up.That example about my wife telling me never to criticize anything about her parents' house again. She could have brought it up in a really bad way, like yelling from the top of her lungs. She could have been crying while doing it. She could even have told me to fuck off. But instead, she told me directly that it hurt her feelings when I say things like that.On my part, I could have been defensive about it and yelled at her saying I was only joking and she was taking it too seriously. I could have been sarcastic about it. I could have even lied and said "ok, you're right, I was a jackass."I still think there was nothing wrong with me joking about the internet thing. At the same time, I realize that it upsetted her. A simple "ok, I understand" was sufficient.I guess what I'm trying to say in too many words is I am convinced mutual understanding is the key. You can both be right and be happy. When you try to convey something that have upsetted you, say how you feel, not how bad the other person is. For example, take a look at the following statements. No, I didn't come up with this on my own. I got it from a book about successful marriage I once read."Why the hell do you have to be so loud in the morning and wake everyone up with you?""I know you're in a hurry in the morning, but I would really appreciate it if you could be a little quieter in the morning. I really need to get some sleep."It's really how you say it instead of what you say.

I've been trying to bash this into my girlfriend's skull forever now. She is also the kind of person where her idea of compromise is "YOU compromise with ME.".

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"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu

This may sound silly to you, but when I first hooked up with my now wife, I went to the library and got a bunch of books on successful marriage and marriage psychology. The key is not to let your emotion take over you.And that old belief that husband and wife have to argue to make the marriage work? It's a load of bullshit.Case in point. One time I went to visit an old friend from college in the city. When I got there, she and her boyfriend were screaming off the top of their lungs at each other. After a little nosing in, I finally figured out what happened. She came back from work catching him talking with his ex on the phone. Despite the fact that they were living about 1000 miles apart, my friend still were filled with jealousy and rage.I don't think it's healthy. I don't think it's the best way to keep the relationship going. And from my point of view, if I really love my partner, I wouldn't have to worry because I trust her completely. We're both secure enough to allow the other person some personal freedom. Why be so clingy and emotional about little things?Again, my wife is brutally honest at times to me. I've heard her criticize me about everything from me being inconsiderate to my breath smelled. None has ever turned into a fight. I've only had a couple criticisms of my wife, and one of them is her being a little too emotional at times. Again, neither of us understand why people have the need to make such a big deal out of the tiniest things.Here is a quote from a movie that I found very useful. "We're both damaged goods, but we're goods nonetheless." Everyone's got issues. We just need to understand them and deal with them accordingly. Even when I was dragged to see that boring movie Brokeback Mountain, I went anyway without making a scene and endured almost 2 boring hours of gay cowboys kissing *shudders*.Anyway, my advice to you is you should slowly steer your girlfriend toward the right direction, not make a confrontation. Slowly make her understand that you want to know how she feels, not how she thinks you and everyone else feel.

Sounds like time for a new girlfriend.

I've been reading a few of people's take on the situation of marriage only to come to the conclusion that I already had. Relationships are a double-edged sword and a dichotomy of sorts. It's good points are really good and its bad points really bad.Some people feel really great about being married, some think they are happy but are just numb to the misery, others see the perks and drawbacks, and still others lie through their teeth about their matrimonial bliss because they see it as a deficiency on their part and want to save face.On the single side, they claim it is so freeing and wonderful to be king or queen of your own castle, especially after having been in a terrible marriage/relationship filled with nagging and negativity. And for a while it probably is, until that inevitable pining for affection (genuine affection, not sex) and for comraderie surfaces. That's when you see the sad, lonely, and pitiable souls who are far past their prime to be attractive to members of the opposite sex (or same sex, depending on one's sexual orientation).I don't think it is anyone's place to sit here and tell others what is better, being married or single. The reality is we each have our reasons for preferring one over the other and none of us should be telling the other what is better. We each have to figure out things for ourselves and we are all different. Even the you today will be different from you 20 years from now.As Robert Redford stated in the movie, Lions for Lambs (completely unrelated to relationships) but nonetheless a truism I've come to find, You're never going to be the same person that you are right now. I found that to be true. The person I am today is different, albeit slightly, than the person I was 5 years ago, which is different than 5 years before that, on do so on. I imagine that 5-years in to the future I will again be slightly a new man.We don't know what the future will hold for us or how we will evolve emotionally or intellectually. I guess the point is, if you are single now and loving it, doesn't mean that you aren't going to meet one special person in the future. If you are married to Mr. Right, you may come to find that he was actually Mr. Right Now 15 years ago.All we can do is the best we can do and try to be as wise and loving along the way as we can, and not try and force things to happen. Just let things fall in to place. Regardless, we will fail in many areas. In most areas, I dare say. But those failures will allow us to revel in the successes in life.Enjoy the ride. Life is a journey, not a destination.(Wow, this got way more "Zen" than I was expecting, but you get the point)

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"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

Hi JazznsYou make some good and fair points, many of which I agree with, but I still think there are some subtle but important differences. I don't know if I said "most". If I did I obviously can't back that up. I never meant to doubt that there are many people classified as "married" who have very happy relationships. I really don't like to make it my business to tell other people what to do in their private lives, although, in my opinion, I find it hard to understand why they need their relationship to be publically and officially classified. The fact that it is publically and officially classified ought to make no difference to the strength and happiness of the relationship.I understand the fact that it helps in a practical sense with legal clarification in the case of hospital visiting rights, inheritance, etc.What does concern me is the way it is billed as a big aim in life and you are deemed a failure if you're not married.Certain attitudes may be on the wane, and may vary between regions, but there are still people who regard marriage (i.e. not just being in a relationship) as being the only way to fulfillment.For example, my neighbour, who is generally a very nice person, not only constantly laments the fact that I am not married, she says the same to my other neighbours, who have co-habited for about 30 years!, and also to her daughter, who has co-habited for 10 years and born a daughter of her own from that relationship. It really isn't always as simple as people expressing a hope for you to be in a relationship. Although, I do agree that it is a grey area and these days many people do often express a hope for you to be in any kind of relationship. However, I still regard that as putting undue pressure on people to be in a relationship, such that they are likely try and find a partner for fear of being seen as a failure.As I said in my OP, it is a no-brainer. If you find someone with whom you wish to share your life, you will do so. You don't need other people telling you to find someone. As you rightly said, we have a natural instinct to make a pair bond. Constantly hearing from family, friends, politicians, and fictional tales that you must find a partner is as daft as telling someone they must find food.I also, frankly, find it offensive. Several others on this site have expressed that, like me, they are very happy being single. So how do you think it makes me feel when someone says, it's a "shame" or a "waste" that I never got married (or into any kind of long-term relationship). Imagine how they (or you?) might feel if I said to them, "it's such a shame and a waste that you got married. I really hope you get divorced sometime soon." You are absolutely right, of course, that people are often or even ususally indoctrinated into following the same political ideology as their parents. However, that doesn't mean their political ideology is a religion. You have completely misunderstood my comparison to religion. I am comparing certain aspects of marriage to certain aspects of relgion. That is an indoctrination by family, society, etc into what is considered right and respectable. If something is considered right and respectable, that doesn't necessarily mean it is a religion. It just means it shares a common characteristic with religion.I don't have a problem with the idea that those of us in the west are, in a sense, indoctrinated into considering democracy to be the right and respectable way to govern. Although, of course, democracy in it's purest and most commonly understood sense means a right for individuals to have an equal voice in choosing exactly how we are governed. Democracy doesn't really define specifically how we are governed but how we choose to be governed. Many people are certainly indoctrinated into thinking there is one right and respectable way to be governed (i.e. by following the same political party as their parents).

You keep saying things like that. But that is not my experience at all.Perhaps that is true in your social circles. You might want to try broadening those circles.