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Author Topic:   God as Artist
RAZD
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Posts: 19756
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 1 of 32 (392619)
04-01-2007 3:32 PM


The whole paradigm of god as a designer = grand engineer is fraught with problems, not least of which are designs of questionable (to be polite) value.

I suggest an alternative concept: God as Artist.

The artist is not held to the same standard for things to work - their standards are otherwise: sometimes to entertain, sometimes to amuse, sometimes to educate, sometimes to just make people smile with appreciation.

An artist can be serious, silly, reverent or irreverent.

An artist that makes a very detailed design of an object does not necessarily display great creativity in art.

Turning out thousands of copies of identical clay pots is not art, but incorporation of the "happy accident" can make the difference between pedestrian and art.

Life is a work of art. The universe is a work of art.

Enjoy.


Intelligent Design Forum please


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Replies to this message:
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AdminPD
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Message 2 of 32 (392788)
04-02-2007 10:45 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
mike the wiz
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Posts: 4637
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 3 of 32 (392870)
04-02-2007 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
04-01-2007 3:32 PM


Nice take on it. :)

"happy accident"

Have you been listening to Bob Ross again?

Life is a work of art. The universe is a work of art.

As a hobby artist, I agree. Perhaps God is more creative than we give him credit for. Looking at the diversity of lifeforms alone, leads one to observe an obvious aesthetic achievement, in species' form.

Whether God actually plants the seeds of diversity - who knows. But artistically, I find a cat creatively brilliant, as I do a horse, and the difference between species, is amazing, to a visualist.


This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19756
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 4 of 32 (392877)
04-02-2007 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by mike the wiz
04-02-2007 7:12 PM


Thanks Mike (and AdminPD).

Have you been listening to Bob Ross again?

No, Jimmy Buffet (Fruitcakes): it's the taoist in me ... :D

Perhaps God is more creative than we give him credit for.

It just struck me walking home with a nice hot mocha latte from the corner barrista (who is a real work of art ... :P)

The whole emphasis on design was wrong. Design turns out robots, while art ... makes great coffee.

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : link to lyrics


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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by mike the wiz, posted 04-02-2007 7:12 PM mike the wiz has responded

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Neutralmind
Member (Idle past 4200 days)
Posts: 183
From: Finland
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 5 of 32 (392880)
04-02-2007 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
04-01-2007 3:32 PM


An artist can be serious, silly, reverent or irreverent.

reminds me of one of the best topics around here :d

I'm just wondering how this artist thing actually works. Would it be like with other artists that he makes a few great works and the rest are just praised as good because of his gained reputation?


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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4637
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 6 of 32 (393030)
04-03-2007 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by RAZD
04-02-2007 7:32 PM


link writes:

the cosmic bakers Took us out of the oven a little too early

Hah! I like it.


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Doddy
Member (Idle past 3986 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 7 of 32 (393195)
04-03-2007 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by mike the wiz
04-03-2007 10:08 AM


Yes, if God's work is an artwork, I think we live where he spilled tequila onto the canvas!


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Raphael
Member (Idle past 4 days)
Posts: 134
Joined: 09-29-2007


Message 8 of 32 (424884)
09-29-2007 4:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
04-01-2007 3:32 PM


I dont think I can fully agree with that. God IS an engineer by the way he made anything on the body for a purpose. Actually, he made almost everything in the universe for a purpose(spiders eat flies, trees make oxygen, sun heats earth). I think God has a sense of humor, but I don't think he purposely made certain things to be humerous. If you find something He made humerous (like a body pary perhaps) that's like making fun of His work. How would you like it if you built something and meant it to be serious, and everyone kept laughing at it? But you are certainly right abotut the fact that God is an artist. So, I propose another way of looking at it, how about God is an..........Artistic Engineer!!

But are you sating that God makes mistakes? I dont understand what you find problematic..

Edited by Raphael, : More to say. Changing punctuation. Adding signature.


I Know it's Easy to Deny the Truth.............Don't Be Decieved.
This message is a reply to:
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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1674 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 9 of 32 (424901)
09-29-2007 6:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
04-01-2007 3:32 PM


God is really only another artist. He made the elephant, giraffe and cat. He has no real style but keeps trying new ideas.

-- Pablo Picasso (1881-1973)


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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1674 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 10 of 32 (424906)
09-29-2007 6:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
04-01-2007 3:32 PM


Creative problems, Creative resolutions
Here's another thought for your Taoist side, RAZD.

An important feature of great art is dynamism. The idea is to make a creative problem for yourself by setting up a tension of some sort in the work. You set opposite forces in conflict--symmetry and assymetry, order and chaos, bright and dark, consonant and dissonant, micro and macro, predictability and surprise, tradition and novelty--then resolve the conflict.

The most powerful resolutions in art are those that find a satisfying place for all the forces that have been set in motion. They are reconciled and integrated in a complete picture.

____


Archer

All species are transitional.


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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19756
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 11 of 32 (424913)
09-29-2007 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Raphael
09-29-2007 4:54 AM


I Know it's Easy to Deny the Truth.............Don't Be Decieved.

You might want to spellcheck that if you are going to use it as your signature. I fully agree, and also note that denial of evidence that contradicts belief is not faith but delusion:

de·lu·sion –noun1. an act or instance of deluding.
2. the state of being deluded.
3. a false belief or opinion: delusions of grandeur.
4. Psychiatry. a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact: a paranoid delusion.

I dont think I can fully agree with that. God IS an engineer by the way he made anything on the body for a purpose.

And you can speak from personal knowledge of this as fact? And when a cave fish living in total darkness has vestigial eyes covered by skin, what purpose is served?

An artist can make rube-goldberg devices that serve a purpose. An engineer would not have unnecessary elements.

Enjoy.


Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16227
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 12 of 32 (424941)
09-29-2007 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Raphael
09-29-2007 4:54 AM


Raphael writes:

How would you like it if you built something and meant it to be serious, and everyone kept laughing at it?

If an artist "meant" to communicate something and that message didn't get across, that's the artist's fault, not the audience's.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1674 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 13 of 32 (424944)
09-29-2007 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
04-01-2007 3:32 PM


They don't know anything about science, but they know what they like.
Life is a work of art. The universe is a work of art.

It's beautiful, RAZD. But the fundies are going to have at least two problems with this.

One: They can't get art into a public school science class.

Two: They know even less about art than they do about science.


Archer

All species are transitional.


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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16085
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 14 of 32 (424956)
09-29-2007 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Raphael
09-29-2007 4:54 AM


Actually, he made almost everything in the universe for a purpose(spiders eat flies ...)

And flies, by a wise and beneficient purpose, are there to feed the spiders.

It all makes perfect sense.


This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16085
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 15 of 32 (424957)
09-29-2007 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
04-01-2007 3:32 PM


Life is a work of art. The universe is a work of art.

Oh, I proved that ages ago. It's one of those breakthroughs in Intelligent Design Theory that you never see reported in the evil atheist media.

Dr Adequate writes:

* Adopts ID pose, dons Magical Hat of Analogy, says the mystic occult words "Petitio principii!" *

Designed objects fall into two categories. First, there are those which are useful. Now the Earth and its ecosystem are not evidently in use. Moreover, so far as we are aware, no design theorist has ever even postulated a use that the Designer (or the Owner) might have for a life-bearing planet, still less shown positive evidence that it has one.

What is it supposed to be for, after all? Is it a manufactory? A conveyance? A utensil? It seems ill-adapted for any purpose.

Experience teaches us that when an object is well designed, but has no practical purpose, it is intended to be ornamental. The Earth, we know, is well-designed. From the fact that the Earth has no conceivable use, it follows that the Earth must fall into the second category. The Earth must be an ornament, a decoration, a work of art.

Hence we have a strong and testable prediction: that the Earth should, in fact, be ornamental. Now the Earth, I think everyone will conceed, is quite stunningly beautiful; and it is noteworthy that the principal exceptions are those parts which have been modified by humanity for practical purposes. Similarly, all our experience teaches us that the most highly ornamental objects are never intended for practical purposes.

To summarize our findings: the Earth has no apparent use; it is evidently highly ornamental; hence it is an ornament.

This deduction is in line with other sciences which deal with the study of design, such as archaeology. If an archaeologist were to unearth an item which was evidently designed, which showed no signs of use, had no conceivable practical use, and was unarguably very beautiful, then that archaeologist would classify it as ornamental in function.

---

I wonder how many other people in the Wonderful Scientific World Of ID have come to this conclusion? I wonder how much ink has been expended over this point?

I wonder ... and I can guess.


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