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Author Topic:   Marxism
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 225 of 526 (553274)
04-02-2010 1:07 PM


My 2
We don't want a government that would let people starve or go without adequate shelter.
And we don't want a government that lets people freeload at government expense.
Too little money or too much oversight and people go cold or hungry.
Too much money or too little oversight and people freeload.
A perfect system isn't possible. No matter how good the system, there will always be people going cold and hungry and other people freeloading. All you can do by tweaking the system is improve the accuracy and change on which side you err. Hopefully the one constant and the one ideal we all share is a that there should not be cold or starvation or freeloading.
--Percy

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 324 of 526 (553611)
04-04-2010 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 317 by Faith
04-04-2010 1:14 AM


Faith writes:
Of course the denizens of Wonderland don't KNOW they're in Wonderland...
Since the "the denizens of Wonderland don't KNOW they're in Wonderland," isn't it possible that you're the one in Wonderland and don't know it?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Faith, posted 04-04-2010 1:14 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 337 by Faith, posted 04-04-2010 3:46 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 349 of 526 (553678)
04-04-2010 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by Faith
04-04-2010 3:46 PM


The simplest way to link to nwr's post 237 is to simply type [msg=-237], which yields Message 237. The minus sign keeps it from including the message title in the link. If you want the title too then just leave out the minus sign and you'll get this: Message 237.
--Percy

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 Message 337 by Faith, posted 04-04-2010 3:46 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 350 of 526 (553680)
04-04-2010 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by DevilsAdvocate
04-04-2010 4:21 PM


Re: Webster's definition of POLITICS
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Therefore when you say that people "steal from the government" in essense we are stealing from ourselves are we not?
I think Faith understands that the stealing she's talking about isn't against the law because at one point she did say that the laws being broken were moral, not legal.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 04-04-2010 4:21 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 04-04-2010 5:22 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 356 by Faith, posted 04-04-2010 6:07 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 367 of 526 (553723)
04-04-2010 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 356 by Faith
04-04-2010 6:07 PM


Re: Webster's definition of POLITICS
Faith writes:
I think Faith understands that the stealing she's talking about isn't against the law because at one point she did say that the laws being broken were moral, not legal.
I'm not quite sure if this is what I'm saying or not. It may be. Welfare isn't against the law so according to the law and most everyone here it's not stealing, but it IS stealing by any natural definition of stealing. If that's what you meant I meant, OK.
Much of what you say you say is both internally and externally inconsistent. You frequently contradict both yourself and reality.
In this particular case you seem unsure of what you yourself have said. This is you from Message 267 stating uneqivocally that you're talking about moral not human law (I used the same font you did):
Faith in Message 267 writes:
The word UNLAWFULLY. In the sense I speak of stealing I think in terms of a universal absolute moral law, not human law....
I supersized that paragraph because it's an edit it and I want it to be noticed, not because I'm "shouting."
So I noticed it, remembered it, mentioned it to someone else, only to discover that you don't seem to remember saying it.
Faith in Message 352 writes:
There are many places on the web and in the world that I can go where I'm just one of many who believe as I do.
I would love to visit a discussion board where you're just like everyone else and fit right in. Could you point us to one? Why don't you invite your friends here so they can give you some support?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by Faith, posted 04-04-2010 6:07 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 371 by Faith, posted 04-04-2010 9:49 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 400 of 526 (553808)
04-05-2010 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 371 by Faith
04-04-2010 9:49 PM


Re: Contradictions, moral law, helpers, niceness
Hi Faith,
The sense you think you're making is a fantasy, and the people you claim exist who would support your nonsense are also a fantasy. You're living in a little Wonderland all inside your own head where like the Red Queen and Humpty Dumpty any word or argument means precisely what you intend it to mean. Your brain is somehow telling you this nonsense makes sense, and then you're concocting fictions about people who agree with you.
Everyone here is arguing that government sponsored welfare funded by the tax system is not stealing in any legal sense. You yourself have argued that it is stealing in a moral but not legal sense, but now you can't even agree with yourself, continuing to argue anyway while appearing contradictory and nonsensical in the process.
If there is truly someone out there who can make sense of your nonsense then please use all means available to get them to come here and act as interpreter.
By the way, I am not a leftist. That's just another of your fantasies.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by Faith, posted 04-04-2010 9:49 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 402 by nwr, posted 04-05-2010 8:58 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 419 of 526 (553848)
04-05-2010 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 416 by Faith
04-05-2010 10:41 AM


Re: Logical meltdown
Faith writes:
To your mind if it goes to a good purpose it can't be stealing. That is one of the main insanities on this thread all along.
You're failing to read for comprehension. When Kitune wrote this:
Kitune writes:
I'm rich but I'm happy for the government to redistribute my money to the needy=not stealing.
I'm rich but I am not happy for the government to redistribute my money to the needy=stealing.
I (a hypothetical "I") don't approve of the government having a war in Iraq, so it is stealing my money.
I don't approve of the farm subsidy system, so it is stealing my money.
I don't approve of my gay congressman, so my tax contribution to his expenses is stealing.
I don't like the road that was recently built a quarter of a mile from my house, so the government stole from me for that.
But they didn't steal the part of my taxes that paid for the Easter parade. I liked that.
She was repeating your views back to you so as to better clarify their inherent contradictory nature.
Government taxation under laws passed by our duly elected representatives is not stealing in the legal sense of the word.
And you are not saying that it is stealing in a legal sense. You're saying that it's stealing in a moral sense. You can't just say "stealing is stealing" because it depends upon how you're using the word.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 416 by Faith, posted 04-05-2010 10:41 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 420 by Faith, posted 04-05-2010 11:30 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 422 of 526 (553853)
04-05-2010 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 420 by Faith
04-05-2010 11:30 AM


Re: Logical meltdown
Faith writes:
I have never defined stealing by how the money is used.
Sure you have, Faith. Repeatedly. This is you:
  • Money that is taxed and used to pay the police is okay.
  • Money that is taxed and used to pay the poor and indigent is stealing.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 420 by Faith, posted 04-05-2010 11:30 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 423 by Faith, posted 04-05-2010 11:52 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 424 of 526 (553856)
04-05-2010 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 423 by Faith
04-05-2010 11:52 AM


Re: Logical meltdown
Faith writes:
That is not about HOW IT IS USED, it is about the fact that money that goes to PAY for something government does for the PAYER, is NOT STEALING.
So now you're saying that what the money goes to pay for is not the same thing as how it is used?
I think your problem is with simple English.
YOu are truly an idiot, Percy. All of you are.
We're just incredulously watching someone spontaneously self-destruct emotionally before our very eyes.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 423 by Faith, posted 04-05-2010 11:52 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 425 by Faith, posted 04-05-2010 12:11 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 439 of 526 (553886)
04-05-2010 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 428 by Dr Adequate
04-05-2010 12:29 PM


Re: Logical meltdown
I'm with nwr. I don't know how you can conclude liar. Perhaps you mean a troll, the type who attempts to stir things up by posting ridiculous arguments and claims on purpose?
Me, I'm going for the least incredible possibility. After all her time here I don't think Faith is lying, and I don't think she's the longest-running troll act in history, so that leaves deluded and deranged.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Typo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 428 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-05-2010 12:29 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 440 of 526 (553887)
04-05-2010 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 425 by Faith
04-05-2010 12:11 PM


Faith writes:
IN PRINCIPLE PAYING FOR THE RUNNING OF GOVERNMENT AND ITS SERVICES TO THE CITIZENS IS NOT STEALING BECAUSE IT'S PAYING FOR SOMETHING YOU GET, LIKE AN OPERATING GOVERNMENT AND A POLICE FORCE AND A MILITARY AND SO ON
With welfare you *are* paying taxes for something you get, just as with the police and military. If you're involved in an accident the police will respond and provide help. If you become destitute the welfare system will respond and provide help.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 425 by Faith, posted 04-05-2010 12:11 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 442 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-05-2010 8:23 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 446 by RAZD, posted 04-05-2010 9:09 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 483 of 526 (554003)
04-05-2010 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 443 by Faith
04-05-2010 9:00 PM


Hi Faith,
I've been in the same boat as you and will be again. When I was on my own but still in grad school (no income) I became perilously ill and spent a month in the hospital at public expense. When I retire and go on social security I'll be collecting public funds again.
Given how poor a job governments usually do achieving their goals, the programs paying out these funds do a pretty good job. They kept me in school to enable me to become (presumably) an even more productive member of society. They're helping keep you warm and healthy. They'll assist us both long after we're too old to work. No one here but you thinks you're stealing. Few people want to be on assistance, but it's not because they think it's stealing. It's because being dependent in this way hurts one's pride.
... rental assistance...my ex... arthritis...
When I hear these occasional tidbits of your life it makes me count my blessings.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 443 by Faith, posted 04-05-2010 9:00 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 489 of 526 (554059)
04-06-2010 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 488 by Faith
04-06-2010 8:36 AM


Re: summary of summaries
Faith writes:
While you're having such a great time regarding me like a bug specimen pinned to a board, pscyholoanalyzing me to suit your own prejudices and all...
Yeah, sorry about that, but it's brought about by your irrational thinking and behavior combined with an apparent lack of any introspective qualities.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 488 by Faith, posted 04-06-2010 8:36 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 490 by Faith, posted 04-06-2010 12:14 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 493 of 526 (554094)
04-06-2010 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 490 by Faith
04-06-2010 12:14 PM


Re: summary of summaries
Faith writes:
Translation: I disagree with y'all.
No, what you're doing is much more than just disagreeing. You're emotionally irrational. You wrote me that you believed you were better able and prepared now to discuss contentious issues, but faster than at any time previous you self-destructed. As in the past as the irrationality of your position became more and more apparent you became more and more strident and began lashing out at everyone who disagreed with you, in the end once more announcing you were leaving (but, as before, not actually leaving).
We've seen it all before, Faith. That's why I warned folks to be prepared to become engaged in discussions that you imploded and abandoned.
If you would like to engage in dispassionate and productive discussion of controversial issues then the moderator team here is prepared to foster the necessary environment, but they can't do that if you refuse to follow the Forum Guidelines and work with moderators.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 490 by Faith, posted 04-06-2010 12:14 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 496 by Faith, posted 04-06-2010 12:42 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
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