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Author Topic:   Marxism
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4661 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 15 of 526 (552580)
03-29-2010 10:56 PM


I'm one of the very few conservative christian who actually sees socialism and Marxism as almost biblical. Especially when looking at how the first church acted:
Acts 2:44-45
''44All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need.''
My position is probably influenced by the fact that I live in quebec, which is socialist in a lot of aspects. I know our health care system is good, and could be even better if it were managed better then it is right now.
Capitalism works because it feeds off the greed of people, but to a certain extent a form of Marxism is more biblical, because it feeds off the empathy of people.
that was my 2 cents.

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 03-30-2010 12:44 AM slevesque has replied
 Message 35 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-30-2010 8:36 AM slevesque has not replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4661 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 32 of 526 (552602)
03-30-2010 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Faith
03-30-2010 12:44 AM


Re: Christian basis for socialism
Hi Faith,
Yes, but they CHOSE to get together and share their resources, and they did this only as a group among themselves, for EACH OTHER.
This was not government forcing them to do it and do it for people they didn't even know. To do that is against the spirit of this passage, and it is stealing.
It shouldn't even be in the discussion if I know the person the money goes to or not. As a christian, I simply give because it is the godly thing to do.
Christians do not know the homeless at the corner of the street, yet willfully give him money, because they are called to be a imitator of christ. Why then, are they reluctant to give to anyone else, anywhere ?
There is not even anything in that passage to require Christian believers to organize ourselves in that fashion, although it is a model we can follow among ourselves if we want to. I like the idea and wish I were among Christians who think that way. I think more Christians should live like that and not be so dependent on worldly systems such as socialism.
Are you saying that you would like more socialism inside christian communities, but are against such structures inside a country ?
But again, that's entirely different from a secular government's forcing it on the entire citizenry. Surely, again, it IS stealing to take from anyone who doesn't willingly offer it, to give to someone else.
What I'm trying to say is that the christian right in america, of all the cultural/religious groups in the entire US, should be the very first to be ready to give their money to people in need. I mean, they basically do it all the time, everywhere. Yet when it is asked of them by the government, they resist it, cry out against it. This is both inconsistent with their own attitudes in other situations, but also inconsistent with the teachings of the Bible.
There is no empathy in coercion. Empathy volunteers to give. There is only bitterness and resistance in coercion.
And I don't think capitalism is about greed, I think it is about people working freely to support themselves and produce goods and services and inventions and everything else people do when left to themselves to be creative in their work.
Socialism inhibits nothing in all this. Here in quebec, the same motivations drives every person in their work. In fact we have a reputation of being amongst the most imaginative people in the world. People invent, people create, people create goods and services and make profits.
Yet at the same time, these very same people, they pay to support social systems for the weak and the feeble, for the orphan and the widow. For the sick and the poor.
This is because the economics system is still capitalists. This gives the people the motivations to thrive in their work and pursue excellence.
Greed is just one human sin that poor people certainly have as well as rich, and Marxists have it as much or more than capitalists. The leaders of the Communist Party in Russia lived like the czars they had overthrown, while they murdered everyone who opposed them and the people stood in lines all day for bread that never came. That's Marxism at its rawest of course. We only have a modified Marxism.
I once heard a quote from an economics teacher saying ''capitalism works because people are greedy, and communism doesn't work because ... people are greedy''.
The fact is not what the greed of people does in each system. Greed, in any economic system, will produce bad results. The question is to ask which system encourages a greedy behavior.
I prefer doing the wrong thing by given, then by not giving.
If the government is asking the population to give more money to heal the sick, and the people refuse to do so. THe problem is with the population, not the government.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 03-30-2010 12:44 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 03-30-2010 2:19 AM slevesque has not replied
 Message 41 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-30-2010 10:59 AM slevesque has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4661 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 55 of 526 (552661)
03-30-2010 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Hyroglyphx
03-30-2010 10:59 AM


Re: Christian basis for socialism
What good is it to give to Peter Popoff or to shady person standing on the street corner claiming the money is going to a charity when really they are nefarious people? Rather than where it is alleged to be going, to the poor, it goes to themselves. It defeats the purpose of giving to the poor and gives to the greedy bastard who, under the pretense of giving to the poor, really just steals your money.
I'll extrapolate on my own way of giving. Usually when a homeless asks for money on the street, I ask what it is for. If they answer me food, I usually just find a nearby Mcdonalds or grocery store and buy them some food. In other cases, such as a guy asking money to be able to buy a metro ticket, I don't give. Because it is so blatantly obvious he's lying.
These are probably the two most common examples I encounter. In the pasr I would never give, usually because I had heard these stories about ''homeless'' who begged on the street, but actually had houses and a car etc. Doing over 50k a year by begging. Because of stories like that, I didn't give for a long time. But then I realized what I said earlier: I prefer being wrong in giving, then being wrong in not giving.
An imiatator of Christ wouldn't deliberately be a co-conspirator in someone's misery, I would think. If you give money away, just so you can pat yourself on the back for a job well done, all the while knowing that money will be spent on drugs or alcohol, that would make you complicit. I think a sensible Christian would give wisely to those in actual need, versus feeding the flesh (addiction).
I try to never give actual money to a homeless that seems to have drug addictions (and usually it's pretty obvious). As I said earlier, I'll give them food usually.
What you've stated about innovation, inventiveness, and people creating goods and services for profit is descriptive of a capitalist system. Socialism, figuring out the failure of a total communist system, took elements capitalism and elements of communism and merged them in an attempt to take the best of both worlds.
And it actually works. Come live here for two years and benefit from the health care system, and you would agree with me.
I notice you are shifting goals here. You go from defending Marxism as being a "biblical principle" to discussing socialism. What is the topic of this thread?
It's because I'm not as much interested in Marxism than in socialism, since I live in a semi-socialist environment. Sorry about that it wasn't voluntary.
This is a fact: The wealthiest nation on earth, the United States, which is the poster child for a capitalist system is the most giving nation on the planet by private donation. That is a fact, not hearsay. More to the point, the parts of the nation that are the most "blue" states (Democrats who prefer the redistribution of wealth) are the most ungenerous. The #1 most giving state is also one of the most poor. Mississippi. The least generous? My state, New Hampshire. In fact 7 blue states in a row account for the least amount of donation. -- Source
The two most chariatble people in the world, who happen to both be the richest in the world, is Bill Gates and Warren Buffett. Two men who embody capitalist ideals are the world's most generous. That is completely inconsistent with your comment that capitalism "promotes greed."
I think this is caused by the christian mentality/background of america, much more then the economic system.
I do find it interesting that you are equating Marxism with Socialism. I think that is a startling admission. So now I am curious where you are going with this.
See above.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-30-2010 10:59 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-30-2010 3:05 PM slevesque has not replied

  
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