Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 83 (8942 total)
38 online now:
AZPaul3, DrJones*, Faith, jar, PaulK, Percy (Admin), PurpleYouko, vimesey (8 members, 30 visitors)
Newest Member: John Sullivan
Post Volume: Total: 863,628 Year: 18,664/19,786 Month: 1,084/1,705 Week: 336/518 Day: 12/88 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Marxism
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5826
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1 of 526 (552544)
03-29-2010 7:53 PM


The following was posted on the 2nd Amendment thread. I am starting a new thread so the previous won't run rampant with off topic conversation

Faith writes:

quote:
I don't believe in government welfare but I do believe in what the Bible teaches about earning money if you can to help others who can't. It should all be voluntary.

Theo responds:

Yeah that works well. How much of the money the Wall Street execs stole do you think they are giving back? SO you don't believe in Social Security, Medicare medicaid, VA medical, heck the whole VA must be Marxist in your eyes. No unemployment benefits, no food stamps. You know the poor are poor because they are lazy. Are schools a form of welfare in your eyes?

Faith writes:

quote:
It should all be voluntary. I'm sure if conservatives followed that teaching we would never have had a movement for the government to steal their hard earned money from them against their will.

Theo responds:

Who is the government stealing from? You mean taxes?

I have to stop the wingnuttery in this post is just plain overwhelming.

Enjoy


"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Theodoric, posted 03-29-2010 8:11 PM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 03-29-2010 8:13 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6668
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 2 of 526 (552546)
03-29-2010 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hyroglyphx
03-29-2010 7:53 PM


Thank you Hyro
You beat me to it. I appreciate the set up and would like to apologize for misdirecting your topic.

Faith,

Care to follow up?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-29-2010 7:53 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-29-2010 8:14 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 33292
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 3 of 526 (552547)
03-29-2010 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hyroglyphx
03-29-2010 7:53 PM


The following was posted on the 2nd Amendment thread. I am starting a new thread so the previous won't run rampant with off topic conversation

Good move. Sorry I got carried away over there.

Faith writes:
I don't believe in government welfare but I do believe in what the Bible teaches about earning money if you can to help others who can't. It should all be voluntary.

Theo responds:
Yeah that works well. How much of the money the Wall Street execs stole do you think they are giving back?

I said it SHOULD be voluntary, I didn't say anybody was following it as it should be followed. I also said that conservatives generally fail to live up to this teaching and instead tend to have a self-congratulatory attitude about their own hard-earned success story and a moralistic superior attitude to the unfortunate, which is why the socialist drive to turn it all over to government was so successful. They don't have to have stolen anything as in the case of some Wall Street execs, and some of them don't have much either. And of course they aren't all Christians anyway. But even Christians don't live by this Biblical teaching consistently either although as a group we are the biggest givers of financial aid in general.

SO you don't believe in Social Security, Medicare medicaid, VA medical, heck the whole VA must be Marxist in your eyes. No unemployment benefits, no food stamps. You know the poor are poor because they are lazy. Are schools a form of welfare in your eyes?

I believe I was clear that I condemn that kind of snobby attitude to the poor in my post. Did you actually read it? That attitude that the unfortunate are just lazy and freeloaders that so many conservatives seem to have is offensive to me. They aren't obeying the Biblical exhortation I mentioned. That was the point.

No, I'm not against the VA. The government and all the citizens of the country owe it to our military to support them because they serve all of us. Some things government MUST do in its role as government.

Theo responds:
Who is the government stealing from? You mean taxes?

Taxes for any purpose other than legitimate government functions we all need to finance, yes. Taxes that go from hard working citizens to other citizens is just stealing. Giving should be voluntary not coerced from us.

Public education would be fine if it weren't also indoctrination in values that some don't share. For that reason there should be a lot more private education.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-29-2010 7:53 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by hooah212002, posted 03-29-2010 8:27 PM Faith has responded
 Message 8 by Theodoric, posted 03-29-2010 8:55 PM Faith has responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5826
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 4 of 526 (552548)
03-29-2010 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Theodoric
03-29-2010 8:11 PM


Re: Thank you Hyro
I appreciate the set up and would like to apologize for misdirecting your topic.

It's all good, we all get off topic once in awhile.


"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Theodoric, posted 03-29-2010 8:11 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 108 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 5 of 526 (552551)
03-29-2010 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
03-29-2010 8:13 PM


Public education would be fine if it weren't also indoctrination in values that some don't share. For that reason there should be a lot more private education.

Maybe this should be a thread in it's own, but, do share with us what "indoctrination" goes on at a public school? What morals taught in public school are you against? Sharing? Manners? Waiting in line for lunch? Raising your hand before blurting out an answer?


"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Others—for example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einstein—considered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan

"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 03-29-2010 8:13 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 03-29-2010 8:40 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 33292
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 6 of 526 (552555)
03-29-2010 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by hooah212002
03-29-2010 8:27 PM


Maybe some time on the school topic. Not now. Trying to follow many branches to a conversation is tiring and means the best thinking doesn't happen either. That's the same stress I'm trying to escape from on my own thread, which I hope to get back to soon so I don't want to get mired down elsewhere.

Back to Marxism, I simply originally objected to a poster's indignant assertion that there hasn't been any Communist/Marxist indoctrination in this country, because I know there has both from my own personal experience and from my reading. As I wrote over there. I don't know how to link to a specific post (post 206) but this is the url on the page:
http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&m=552545

I just found David Horowitz's Radical Son at Google Books, the book I referenced for information about the thirties American Communist Party movement and its offspring in the Sixties radicals. Tried to link it and managed to get it wrong so here's the raw url:

http://books.google.com/books?id=eqinikpWYaQC&dq=radical+...<

Edited by Faith, : straight out mess I made of a link


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by hooah212002, posted 03-29-2010 8:27 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Taz, posted 03-29-2010 8:42 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 9 by Theodoric, posted 03-29-2010 9:17 PM Faith has responded

    
Taz
Member (Idle past 1578 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 7 of 526 (552557)
03-29-2010 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
03-29-2010 8:40 PM


Could you please fix your long-ass link?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 03-29-2010 8:40 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6668
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 8 of 526 (552558)
03-29-2010 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
03-29-2010 8:13 PM


Taxes that go from hard working citizens to other citizens is just stealing.

So no medicare, Social security or unemployment benefits? Do you equate them with Marxism. Do you know what Marxism is?

Please give some REAL examples of marxism in this country.

Taxes for any purpose other than legitimate government functions we all need to finance, yes.

What are those things that taxes should be for but are not "marxist"?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 03-29-2010 8:13 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-29-2010 9:46 PM Theodoric has not yet responded
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 03-29-2010 10:37 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6668
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 9 of 526 (552562)
03-29-2010 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
03-29-2010 8:40 PM


David Horowitz? are you serious?
David Horowitz is a notorious liar.

He is a racist and a hatemonger. Wiki touches on some of the controversies.

quote:
Horowitz has also come under fire for material in his books, particularly The Professors: The 101 Most Dangerous Academics in America.[54] For example, the group Free Exchange on Campus issued a 50-page report in May 2006 in which they take issue with many of Horowitz's assertions in the book and describe what they see as factual errors, unsubstantiated assertions, and quotations which appear to be either misquoted or taken out of context.[55][56][57] The professors mentioned in the book have since criticized Horowitz.[58] Caroline Higgins says she finds it absurd that she's being criticized for teaching about peace and social justice. She also notes that she puts her syllabi online so students already know what her beliefs are.[58] Joe Feagin, who was criticized for his studies on racism and sexism, says that his conclusions are based on a 43-year research career in which he has published nearly 50 books and 180 research articles and asks of Horowitz and others: "What are their research credentials? Have they done 40 years of solid research on racial and gender issues?"[58] Juan Cole, who was criticized for his studies on the Middle East, says of Horowitz: "He is an ideologue and he has a particular view of the Arab-Israeli conflict which cannot be sustained by anyone who studies the region with primary texts and a global perspective."
Source

If you want to be taken seriously you should find someone else other than him to quote.

Your good buddy David.

quote:
"The left has now become the hate group."
— FrontPageMag.com founder DAVID HOROWITZ, quoted in a Dec. 17 story in The New York Sun, lambasting an attack on a Princeton University student who claimed he'd been beaten unconscious for his conservative views but later admitted he faked the attack (Horowitz, who posted the story on his website, did not retract his comments)
Source

More?

quote:
Horowitz praises Jared Taylor of the Council of Conservative Citizens, an openly racist organization, calling him the "author of a pioneer book of political incorrectness on race...a very intelligent and principled man." Taylor says things like "in some important traits--intelligence, law-abidingness, sexual restraint, resistance to disease--whites can be considered 'superior' to blacks." Taylor's group calls immigrants "slimy mass of brown glop." (Source: Tim Wise, in a symposium on "Ward Churchill: A Symbol of Higher Education?" 3/4/05, FrontPageMagazine.com)
Source


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 03-29-2010 8:40 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-29-2010 9:41 PM Theodoric has responded
 Message 14 by Faith, posted 03-29-2010 10:40 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5826
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 10 of 526 (552566)
03-29-2010 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Theodoric
03-29-2010 9:17 PM


Re: David Horowitz? are you serious?
David Horowitz is a notorious liar

David Horowitz is an interesting fellow. He was a Marxist in his younger life and then did a complete 180 and is now a neo-conservative.


"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Theodoric, posted 03-29-2010 9:17 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Theodoric, posted 03-29-2010 10:02 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 03-29-2010 11:02 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5826
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 11 of 526 (552568)
03-29-2010 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Theodoric
03-29-2010 8:55 PM


Being specific
So no medicare, Social security or unemployment benefits? Do you equate them with Marxism.

If I understand her correctly, her objections are directed towards taxes (unapportioned taxes, maybe?) that she views as frivolous. The problem is that she is not qualifying which taxes she has a problem with. Without specifics, it sounds as if all taxes are bad.

Faith, you're going to have to be more specific otherwise it leaves you open to speculation.


"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Theodoric, posted 03-29-2010 8:55 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6668
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 12 of 526 (552571)
03-29-2010 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Hyroglyphx
03-29-2010 9:41 PM


Re: David Horowitz? are you serious?
Does not preclude that he is a liar, a racist and a hatemonger. The facts speak for themselves. He is a demagogue that will not allow the facts to stand in the way of his beliefs.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-29-2010 9:41 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 03-29-2010 10:56 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 33292
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 13 of 526 (552575)
03-29-2010 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Theodoric
03-29-2010 8:55 PM


Anything we get that we actually paid into is not socialism/Marxism, though there is a socialist element in those programs too as more is paid out than is paid in by many recipients.

Welfare is socialism, food stamps are socialism -- they are determined entirely by need rather than earning. The ridiculous idea of Earned Income Credit is socialist/Marxist. Anything that "takes from the rich to give to the poor" is Marxism. It's stealing. "From each according to ability, to each according to need." Stealing. Depriving people of the incentive to work or create businesses etc. because they're only going to be forced to pay for those who don't work or so much for those who work for them that they can't afford it and are forced out of business. Regulation is necessary to keep one group from exploiting another but Marxism forces one group to pay for another group and that's a whole nother thing.

We don't have full blown economic Marxism in this country yet, but we do have an administration that is steeped in Marxist thinking.

The whole attitude that the wealthy are some sort of oppressor class is also Marxist and that's certainly a biggie these days. I think big business needs to be regulated and certainly fraud must be punished, but the attitude that big business as such is evil is Marxist, the idea that capitalism as such is evil is Marxist, as is the idea that government should take the money away from successful business owners and capitalists and give it to the poor. I suspect you can find some such attitudes in yourself and others here.

Many popular cultural attitudes today are conditioned by the Marxist influence. Cultural Marxism is responsible for gay liberation, the destruction of marriage (there's a thread here about how there is no meaning to marriage in anyone's mind any more -- that's the work of the cultural Marxists), sexual liberation to the point that we pass out condoms to kids because we no longer have a cultural moral basis for insisting they abstain. Marriage is dead as a cultural value, Chrsitian morality is dead as a cultural value; now we have the idea that freedom means pretty much whatever you want to do, the slogan from the sixties now in living actuality. There are other influences than Cultural Marxism on all this but they wrote books specifically pushing these attitudes. Marcuse, Norman O Brown, Wilhelm Reich, they were very big in the sixties.

The topic on the other thread was started by someone expressing incredulity at the idea that there is or was any kind of Marxist/Communist influence in this country. I recommended a book that documents the American Communist Party of the thirties and the radical movement that was born from it in the sixties. They were both economic and cultural Marxists. In other words I already supplied enough references and evidence that this movement exists in this country, but this post may contribute some more if you still don't believe it.

We're swimming in it, you argue for it every day, that's why you can't see it. You don't know that's Marxism.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Theodoric, posted 03-29-2010 8:55 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 33292
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 14 of 526 (552576)
03-29-2010 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Theodoric
03-29-2010 9:17 PM


Re: David Horowitz? are you serious?
David Horowitz certainly didn't make up his entire childhood and experiences as part of the radical movement in the sixties. People around here sling the epithet "liar" against anything they don't like ideologically. If you quote only leftists you'll never find out what Horowitz is really like. Leftists think their point of view is simply the normal point of view so when you call them leftists they get all indignant and call you a liar. Read the source. It's online at Google books.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Theodoric, posted 03-29-2010 9:17 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
slevesque
Member (Idle past 2927 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 15 of 526 (552580)
03-29-2010 10:56 PM


I'm one of the very few conservative christian who actually sees socialism and Marxism as almost biblical. Especially when looking at how the first church acted:

Acts 2:44-45

''44All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need.''

My position is probably influenced by the fact that I live in quebec, which is socialist in a lot of aspects. I know our health care system is good, and could be even better if it were managed better then it is right now.

Capitalism works because it feeds off the greed of people, but to a certain extent a form of Marxism is more biblical, because it feeds off the empathy of people.

that was my 2 cents.


Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 03-30-2010 12:44 AM slevesque has responded
 Message 35 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-30-2010 8:36 AM slevesque has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019