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Author Topic:   An Exploration Into"Agnosticism"
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 69 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 9 of 179 (554036)
04-06-2010 3:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
04-03-2010 8:33 PM


I consider myself an agnostic. To me, it means that I cannot rule out the possibility of a supreme being/master of the universe (not He-Man), but all the ones proposed as of yet i see as mere myths used to explain the wonderful natural world around us. I don't feel comfortable saying there IS a god type thing, but I also feel uncomfortable saying there is NOT a god type thing.


"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Others—for example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einstein—considered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan

"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 04-03-2010 8:33 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Straggler, posted 04-06-2010 2:12 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 69 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 21 of 179 (554151)
04-06-2010 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Straggler
04-06-2010 2:12 PM


Re: Are We All "Agnostics"?
Or do we need some better terminology here to define the position you are taking?

Yes. We can call it rational.


"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Others—for example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einstein—considered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan

"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Straggler, posted 04-06-2010 2:12 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Straggler, posted 04-07-2010 1:23 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 69 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 35 of 179 (554340)
04-07-2010 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Straggler
04-07-2010 1:23 PM


Re: Are We All "Agnostics"?
When you say you are "agnostic" what exactly do you mean?

I mean I can't be certain one way or the other. There are forces that can't seem to yet be answered by nature, but the evidence for any god is non-existent. I've prayed before, and my prayers seemingly were answered. But looking back, it was because I answered them myself. I made the changes necessary to make the thing I wish for happen.

I accept science for all it offers. It trumps belief in all aspects. However, there are areas/things that happen, that cannot yet be explained naturally, lending credence to the possibility of divine intervention.

Is it different from what I mean when I (and others) say I am an atheist who lacks certainty?

Almost definitely yes. I have no problem being labeled as an atheist.


"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Others—for example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einstein—considered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan

"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Straggler, posted 04-07-2010 1:23 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-07-2010 3:50 PM hooah212002 has replied
 Message 45 by Straggler, posted 04-08-2010 5:34 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 69 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 37 of 179 (554343)
04-07-2010 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by New Cat's Eye
04-07-2010 3:50 PM


Re: Are We All "Agnostics"?
Did you mean to say that yes it is different?

Whoops. I guess I was rather ambiguous. I read too fast.

I would have to say that it is different, if only in label/name. If you claim to be atheist, but can't be sure that there is absolutely no god, then I suppose, technically, you're not an atheist. However, I hate getting into exact definitions of word discussions, so I'll leave it at that.


"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Others—for example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einstein—considered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan

"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-07-2010 3:50 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-07-2010 4:22 PM hooah212002 has replied
 Message 41 by DC85, posted 04-07-2010 8:27 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 69 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 39 of 179 (554350)
04-07-2010 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by New Cat's Eye
04-07-2010 4:22 PM


Re: Are We All "Agnostics"?
As in, you don't know if you believe in god or not.

No. I am positive I do not believe in god. I said that I can't know for certain if there is one or not. To me, there is no god until it shows itself.


"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Others—for example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einstein—considered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan

"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-07-2010 4:22 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-07-2010 8:11 PM hooah212002 has seen this message

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 69 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 42 of 179 (554369)
04-07-2010 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by DC85
04-07-2010 8:27 PM


Re: Are We All "Agnostics"?
I shouldn't have gotten involved in this discussion because we always go on toooooo long on definitions of words. It sucks.

At any rate,

I disagree all atheist means is not theist which means an atheist has no belief in a god.

Agree. I guess the way I see atheism is somewhat blind/ignorant. I never think of it in perfect harmony/accordance with the actual definition.

{abe} I meant that my perception is blind/ignorant. Just wanted to clarify that.

If you don't know then you obviously lack belief in a god.

I agree as well.

Could we say Agnostic is a type of atheist?

We could, of course. But then why have the term at all? Like I said before, staunch atheism is as irresponsible a position as staunch theism in that it is not at all possible to know that there is or is not some form of a deity. But then, I guess you also have to look at how you define evidence, too.

Bill Clinton writes:

"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is.

Edited by hooah212002, : clarity


"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Others—for example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einstein—considered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan

"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by DC85, posted 04-07-2010 8:27 PM DC85 has taken no action

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 69 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 46 of 179 (554516)
04-08-2010 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Straggler
04-08-2010 5:34 PM


Re: Are We All "Agnostics"?
OK. So then the obvious question is what do you mean by "divine intervention"? Are you agnostic towards Christ as the son of God and as your saviour on Earth? Are you agnostic towards the Hindu god Vishnu? Are you agnostic towards an Immaterial Pink Unicorn that created the universe and which provides the morla framework for intelligent beings but which plays no other role in the universe? Are you agnostic towards a "god" (whatver you mean by that) who created the universe but who is now "off doing other things" Aas RAZD once phrased it)?

I'm agnostic towards anything supernatural. If it can't be verified emperically, I take no particular stand on it. I don't hold any one god above any other. the FSM, IPU, Jesus, YHWH, etc., are all equally fairy-tales to me.

But that is the point of this thread - What do those who call themselves "agnostics" really mean beyond simply citing the same uncertainty that we all rationally accept anyway.

What else is there? I mean, there are atheists who themselves are certain there is no god, there are theists that are certain there is one. As an agnostic, I take no stance either direction.

I'll bow out now because I really don't know what the hell you are looking for as a response.


"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Others—for example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einstein—considered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan

"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Straggler, posted 04-08-2010 5:34 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Straggler, posted 04-08-2010 6:06 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 69 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 50 of 179 (554528)
04-08-2010 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Straggler
04-08-2010 6:06 PM


Re: Are We All "Agnostics"?
Jesus, Vishnu, and Ra (to name a few) are right up there with Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny. That's how I can call them fairy tales. You can't tell me with 100% certainty that there is NO Santa Clause, can you? But yet, only when it comes to deities do we even have this discussion.

For comparison let me make the following statement on which you can pass your agnostic/atheistic judgement - Your subjective perception of red is the same as mine. Now is that a "fairytale"? Or is it perfectly possible but entirely unknowable? Do you see the difference here?

Colors are subjective. To someone who is red-green color blind, red is not red. We only agree en-mass that red=red.

So I am an atheist and you are an agnostic but we seem equally skeptical towards all conceivable gods. Tell me where I am wrong here?

In that sentence? You are not wrong. I just leave the door open for a deity to show his face, whereas, in my opinion, atheists close that door.

I will respond, but I would rather not have this discussion as I hate arguing semantics.


"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Others—for example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einstein—considered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan

"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Straggler, posted 04-08-2010 6:06 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Straggler, posted 04-08-2010 6:41 PM hooah212002 has seen this message

  
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