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Author Topic:   Vestigial Organs?
Taq
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Posts: 10067
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 9 of 109 (554477)
04-08-2010 1:13 PM


From the very start vestigial has meant having a secondary or rudimentary function compared with the same feature in another species. The human vermiform appendix is a vestigial organ because it is no longer used as a part of a caecum used for digesting plant material. The human tail bone and associated musculature is vestigial because it is no longer used to anchor and move a tail.
As an analogy, let's say you have a computer keyboard that is broken. The keyboard is no longer capable of putting letters on the computer screen. Along comes another person who claims it isn't broken at all, it functions perfectly fine. They then take the keyboard and start pounding in nails with it. See, it has a function, it isn't broken. This is the creationist argument, that any function, no matter how rudimentary, negates the vestigial nature of an organ. Evolutionists point out that it is quite obvious that the keyboard was not designed to pound in nails, but this is flatly ignored by creationists.

  
Taq
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Posts: 10067
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


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Message 14 of 109 (554505)
04-08-2010 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
04-08-2010 3:19 PM


Some creationists insist vestigial organs have a function, I see them as having lost former function, which is consistent with the Fall.
So the human coccyx is evidence that humans used to have tails? We even have the extensor coccygis muscle which spans the fused joints in the coccyx. This muscle is used to raise the tail in other species. What function did this muscle have in humans?

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Replies to this message:
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Taq
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Posts: 10067
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 32 of 109 (554705)
04-09-2010 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by CosmicAtheist
04-09-2010 1:48 PM


I am still a little confused as to how "within eight days an eye started to develop beneath the skin, and after two months the fish had developed a large functioning eye with a pupil, cornea, and iris." That's rather fast.
That's how fast it occurs in the embryo, so it isn't without precedent. Just at first glance, this would seem to indicate that the development in the cave fish eye is halted at an early stage and that this process can be restarted by transplanting cells from a species with fully developed eyes.

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Taq
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Posts: 10067
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 42 of 109 (554817)
04-10-2010 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Faith
04-10-2010 4:28 AM


Re: siple expanation?
I did explain it. The Fall gives an explanation for disease and death so where we see disease and death the Fall is the explanation.
This is an explanation in the same way that Thor's Hammer is an explanation for thunder. IOW, it doesn't explain anything. It is a belief that has no connection to reality.
When the Fall isn't taken into account you get people accusing God of "bad design" and creationists trying to make unfunctioning things have a function. If you take the Fall into account you have an explanation for both design and death.
So what did the extensor coccygis muscle do prior the fall? In modern humans it spans a fused joint in the tail bone. In other species with tails this muscle is used to raise the tail. So what did this muscle do in Pre-Fall man?

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Taq
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Posts: 10067
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 97 of 109 (559876)
05-11-2010 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Peg
05-11-2010 8:21 PM


Having similar traits does not make us related and most definately does not prove that we evolved from the species in question.
Let's look at this from a slightly different angle. If humans and other primates do share a common ancestor wouldn't you expect there to be shared characteristics?
i dont know enough about what you are talking about here to comment.
If I may be so bold, Bluejay is asking why God would change the DNA sequence of genes in different species even though that change in DNA has no effect on the final function of the gene.
No gene is this short, but let's say that you compare the same gene from humans and mice and they look like this:
AAAAATAAAA : human
AAAAACAAAA : mouse
Using modern technology you can actually take the gene from humans and put it in mice. Guess what? The gene functions exactly the same. So why wouldn't the same designer use the same sequence in both species? Even more, why do small changes like this correlate with evolutionary distance? It would be analogous to slightly changing the placement of dials in every Ford Mustang that comes off the line for no other reason than personal whim. It is ineffecient to say the least, the very opposite of what you would expect from a design process.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 106 by Blue Jay, posted 05-14-2010 10:51 AM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10067
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 104 of 109 (560313)
05-14-2010 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Peg
05-13-2010 7:47 PM


Just because we have two arms and two legs does not mean we share a common ancestor
You missed my point. If two species share a common ancestor would you or would you not expect them to have shared characteristics? I am not asking you to accept common ancestry. All I am asking is what you would expect to see if common ancestry was true.
sheep, pigs and deers have split hooves...are they related?
They are all in the placental mammal kind, aren't they?
perhaps the gene was rendered inactive once it was inserted into the mouse
Nope. These can be genes vital for the survival of the mouse, and they work just fine. The expression of these genes is always verified, and there are even systems where you can control the expression of the gene with different drugs.
have they tried this in the embryonic stages of life before the genes have had a chance to do what they were designed to do????
Yep.

This message is a reply to:
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