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Author
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Topic: What constitutes matters of Brotherhood and Fellowship?
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.5
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FELLOWSHIP
Hi EMA,
EMA writes: I am not yet stating a position here, just yet, I am simply asking the Christians here, their perspective, of course from a Biblical perspective. Sorry to wade in so late but there are only so many hours in the day. I have tried to read up on a regular basis. I fellowship with anyone who is trying to do right and help their fellow mankind. This includes most religions, atheist and agnostics. I have Christian fellowship with born again children of God. There is only one group of people in the world SINNERS. This group of people is divided into two types of SINNERS. BORN AGAIN SINNERS AND LOST SINNERS. Born again sinners have eternal life. Lost sinners face eternal separation from God. Therefore the whole issue revolves around what it takes to be born again. Jesus explained what it is to be born again.
John writes: 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. Jesus told Nicodemus he "MUST" be born again, that means it is not optional. In jump in a lot of people and say the water birth is baptism without considering what Jesus explained it to be in verse 6. Jesus said that which is born of the flesh is flesh. Unless humans have changed from that day to this we still have a human that is encased in water until it breaks just prior to the fleshly birth. This was Jesus explanation of the water birth. He then tell us that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. So our spirit "MUST" be born of the Spirit of God.
John writes: 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. God so Loved God Gave God did not condemn the world as it was already condemned. God says all those who have not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God is condemned already. There is nothing else that condemns a person as we are all sinners. The only thing that removes that condemnation is "BELIEF (TRUST) IN THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON'S SACRIFICE OFFERED BY GOD. Anyone who adds anything to God's requirements for entry into heaven is anti-christ. Regardless of what they claim. Now doctrine and teachings are a whole different kettle of fish, which have nothing to do with entrance into heaven. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-08-2010 10:21 AM | | Dawn Bertot has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.5
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Message 41 of 163 (557806)
04-28-2010 2:55 AM
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Reply to: Message 36 by Peg
04-28-2010 1:52 AM
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Re:Assembly
Hi Peg,
Peg writes: im finding it hard to understand how you come to that conclusion considering the same word 'ekklesian' is used in both verses. This greek word means 'assembly' not universal or local. I agree it is hard to understand. We are born into God's family at the new birth. We are added to the Church. ekklsia is the Greek word from a compound of ek and kale. ek mean out of and kale means to call. Thus the meaning of ekklsia is given as, Primary meaning: 1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly. This can only refer to a local meeting. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 36 by Peg, posted 04-28-2010 1:52 AM | | Peg has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.5
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Re: FELLOWSHIP
Hi EMA,
EMA writes: Is this an indirect implication regarding my and the Chruch of Christs beliefs regarding Baptism, given what you said above Ward Hogland explained the Church of Christ belief on baptism many times back in the 60's. That it was necessary in order for a person to go to heaven. But he could never produce a scripture that said if you are not baptized you will end up in the lake of fire. He failed to explain how the thief on the cross could go to paradise and be with Jesus without being baptized. He failed to explain John 3:18 which plainly states why a person is condemned.
John writes: 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This verse plainly states a person is condemned because he has not believed. It did not included church membership, good works, or baptism as necessary for a person not to be condemened. If you have a verse that contradicts this verse please present it. Remember anti means against, so a person that adds to the Words of Jesus is against Him. God Bles
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 49 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-29-2010 10:18 AM | | Dawn Bertot has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.5
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Hi EMA,
EMA writes: "For if we sin willfully after we have recieved a knowledge of the truth, THERE REAMINS NO MORE A SACRIFICE FOR SIN" That quote is from Hebrews 10:26 where the writer was addressing a group of people who had assembled together. So he was talking to saved people not the unsaved. I believe from the Word and experience the writer knew what he was talking about. That if a person willfully commits a sin after he has been saved there will be severe punishment.
EMA writes: but there is a sin UNTO DEATH. There is no reason to believe this relates only to non-believe Ananias and Sapphira proved there is a sin unto death. They lied to the Holy Spirit, and the church. They were believers.
EMA writes: Here is the problem you have with that manner of thinking. You and no Calvanist can provide me with any scripture, that says or implies that WE OURSELVES AS CHRISTIANS AND FREE THINKING PERSONS cannot remove ourselves from that status by wilfull disobedience I would like for you to explain what Jesus was talking about in the following verses.
John writes: 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 10:30 I and my Father are one. What is your definition of eternal life? What is your definition of never perish? What did Jesus mean in verse 28 when He said I give unto them eternal life? Did Jesus mean it was a gift and you could not earn it? See Rom 6:23 What did Jesus mean when He said they would NEVER perish? What did Jesus mean when He said neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand? It sounds to me like if you decided to get unborn again after you have been born again it would be impossible as you would be more powerful than God which He claimed to be in verse 30. You are the product of your earthly father and mother. You were born to them. Is there any way you can cease to be their child? If a person is born into the family of God by the Spirit of God as Jesus told Nicodemus in John chapter 3 please explain how that person can be unborn. It is no easier to cease to be a child of God than it is for you to cease to be the product of your earthly parents. I await your explanation with great anticipation. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 58 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-30-2010 12:23 PM | | Dawn Bertot has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.5
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Re: FELLOWSHIP
Hi EMA,
EMA writes: sure he did you just werent paying attention. Mark 16:16. He that is believes and is Baptized SHALL be saved, he that believeth not is condemned. Mark writes: 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Where does that verse say he that is not baptized shall be damned? I believe Mark 16:16 but you don't.
EMA writes: Belief is a precondition to baptism, the proper candadate for Baptism to BE VALID IS ONE THAT BELIEVES. If the person does not believe, dunking someone in water is not baptism and not valid. This why Christ left baptism off of the latter part of the statement. Are you saying that a person can go to heaven without being baptized?
EMA writes: Question. is it necessary to believe to be properly baptized, Yes or No It is not only necessary to believe the facts but a person must be a born again child of God. Jesus set the example. Baptism did not change anything about Him it was only an announcment.
EMA writes: Question. If a person is dunked in water not believing Christ, does this constitute a scriptural baptism in Christ? A person can be dunked under water until he/she drowns and it will not make them a born again child of God. So dunking a person in water does not constitute a scriptural baptism in Christ. I did my thesis on Baptism in college. The elements of scriptural baptism are: A proper subject. A born again child of God. The proper authority. A scriptural new testament Church. An administrator appointed by a scriptural NT Church.
EMA writes: Question. Can a person obey christ and be saved in Mark 16:16 without believing and being baptized? There is nothing to obey in Mark 16:16. A person that is born again is saved according to Mark 16:16 as not doing that is the only thing that will condemn them. A person that is born again and is baptized is saved according to Mark 16:16. There are no requirements in Mark 16:16 that a person has to be baptized in order to be saved as not being baptized does not condemn them.
EMA writes: It is you you ole calvinist that is subtracting form Gods word, ha ha, just alittle fun there, but you are indeed subtracting form his word Then please point out my additions to God's Word. I am not the one adding baptism to God's requirement for salvation. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 60 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-30-2010 12:59 PM | | Dawn Bertot has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.5
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Hi EMA,
EMA writes: He meant that on one or anything BUT YOURSELF AND YOUR FREWILL could take this gift away from you, but you can There you go again adding to the Words of Jesus. He did not say anything about your freewill being able to take away the gift from you. In fact He said NO MAN that includes you.
EMA writes: No there is not but you can be taken away by the judge and finally executed out of their control, while still there son, correct When did you cease to be their son, even by the sin unto death. Even in death you are still their dead son
So there is no way you can cease to be the son of your parents. Just as there is no way you can cease to be a child of God once you have been born into His family by His Spirit. I am still waiting for the explanation of how a person can cease to be a child of God's after being born into His family. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 62 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-30-2010 1:43 PM | | Dawn Bertot has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.5
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Re: FELLOWSHIP
Hi EAM,
EAM writes: In the first part of the verse you ole Calvinist you. Since I do not follow the teachings of John Calvin why do you refer to me as a Calvinist?
"God preordained...a part of the human race, without any merit of their own, to eternal salvation, and another part, in just punishment of their sin, to eternal damnation. " John Calvin I do not agree with this statement of John Calvin. I believe that every person who will humble themself and receive the free gift offered by God for their salvation will receive eternal life and will spend eternity with God. I do believe in total depravity because the Bible teaches it. I do not believe in limited redemption. I believe in whosoever will. I do not believe in Irresistible Grace. God is not willing that any should perish, but that all would come to repentence. I do believe in Perseverance of the saints as God gives eternal life. If it is eternal and the spirit is sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption there is no way it can cease. So I do agree with 2 of the 5 principals of Calvinism. Source: Calvinism: A Christian belief system about salvation
EMA writes: Belief proceeds baptism, but Baptism is clearly a part of the requirements set out by Christ here in this verse. baptism, confession and repentance are all a part of the belief or faith process, they are not seperate from it, there a part of it I agree they are all a part of the faith process. But "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18 Not believing is the only thing that condemns a person. Produce the scripture that says you are condemned for not being baptized.
EAM writes: Baptism, confession and repentance are AN ACT OF FAITH OR BELIEF. Its all the same ICANT, with faith and belief as its source Confession and repentance is a part of belief. Baptism is an act which requires no faith only obedience to do it properly. The Church is commanded to make believers, then to baptize them, and then to teach them the all things that Christ had taught the Church.
EAM writes: The passage is the same sort of illustration Your illustration has no comparison to the passage involved.
Mark writes: 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Why is there a conjunction between believeth and is baptized? It stands to reason if one does not believe he will not be saved so why did Jesus say "but he that believeth not shall be damned"?
EMA writes: The word AND in the sentence is a coordinating conjunction. And you got that from your studies in Greek of the word kia. In Greek it is a simple conjunction joining the last phrase to the first phrase. He that believeth shall be saved. He that believeth not shall be damned. No where does the Bible say he that is not baptized shall be damned. Produce the passage that does. Question,does Mark 16:16 say,"he that believeth not shall be damned? Question, does Mark 16:16 say, "he that is baptized not shall be damned?
EMA writes: thus peter told the People on the day of pentecost the very same thing. "Repent and be baptized in order to recieve remission of sins". Acts 2:38 Two conditions that bring about salvation or forgiveness of sins Actually the text says:
Luke writes: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. It does not say in order to receive the remission of sins. The Greek word eis translated for means into, unto, to, towards. In other words the remission of sins had already taken place at the point of belief.
EAM writes: Are you going to cherry pick scripture and ignore all it has to say about the purpose of Baptism? Hold on I never said baptism was not important. You can not begtin service for Jesus until you are baptized, for Jesus said follow me. He walked 40 miles to be baptized by the man who had the authority to baptize, John the Baptist. You can not be a member of the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ if you have not been baptized by the authority of a scriptural New Testament Church as they are the only ones who has the authority. It is very important but it has no saving power. Why was Jesus baptized by John the Baptist? Did He set the example for us to follow? What was changed about Jesus by His baptism? What happened at His baptism? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.5
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Re: FELLOWSHIP
Hi EMA, I will narrow my focus as you seem to miss a lot of my post. Why did Jesus walk 40 miles to be baptized? What change took place in the life of Jesus by His baptism? What event took place after the baptism of Jesus? Is the thief that was on the cross beside Jesus in heaven with Jesus today? When was the thief on the cross baptized? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.5
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Re: FELLOWSHIP
Hi EMA,
EMA writes: Since i dont know what you are after here, Ill let you answer first I was just wondering if He became a child of God after His baptism or was He God's son before His baptism.
EMA writes: He was decended upon by the Spirit of God Matthew writes: 3:17 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. So when did He become the Son of God?
EMA writes: He (the theif) was still under the old Covenant before jesus died and Jesus had power as God to forgive sins directly at that time, as he indicated many times. Unless he was a jew he was not under the Law of Moses. But that presents a huge problem. How and when was the 120 disciples that received the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost saved? The Apostles and many others had been baptized by John the Baptist but some had been baptized by the Apostles. The sacrifice of the cross was made from the foundation of the universe.
John writes: Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. God's plan of salvation has been in effect since before the first man was formed from the dust of the earth.
EMA writes: After his death and resurrection he appointed a way for for forgiveness of sins to be applied and that was through Belief and baptism. Do you have scripture to support this assertion? I thought He said during His personal ministry:
John writes: 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Are you telling me this was not in effect until after His death, burial, and resurrection?
EMA writes: After his death and resurrection he appointed a way for for forgiveness of sins to be applied and that was through Belief and baptism. Do you have scripture to support this assertion?
EMA writes: The theif on the cross had direct contact with the testator but did not need the conditions (in this instance baptism)of the new testament since the testator had power to forgive sins immediately and in that instance. When did eternal life become an inheritance?
Luke writes: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Eternal life is a gift of Theos the great Three in One. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. That gift was purchased by the death of God the Son at Calvary, when He said: "it is finished". All those saved prior to Calvary was saved looking to the coming sacrifice and all saved afterwards looking back to the sacrifice. God gave me my eternal life. Mt Gillead Baptist Church baptized me in the Aucilla river by the authority invested in it by Jesus when He said to the Church:
Matthew writes: 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen. The Greek word mathteu translated teach in verse 19 means make disciples. The Greek word didask translated teaching in verse 20 means to hold discourse with others in order to instruct them. The Church Jesus built during His personal ministry was authorized to first: Make disciples of all nations. Once they were disciples they were to be baptized. Once they were members of the Church they were to be taught to observe all things, Christ had commanded them. This is God's order any other order is out of order. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 76 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-01-2010 12:15 PM | | Dawn Bertot has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.5
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Re: FELLOWSHIP
Hi EMA,
EMA writes: Before why? What does that have to do with baptism.? So it is understood and agreed to that He was the Son of God before His baptism.
EMA writes: So when did He become the Son of God?
At his birth when Mary was overshadowed. What does this have to dowith us? Are you sure it was not in the beginning as John said:
John writes: 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. The entity described in these verses is the one who died on the cross of Calvary. In verse 12 the Greek word exousia translated power should have been translated power of choice. The word even in verse 12 does not exist in the Greek texts.
EMA writes: ICANT writes: How and when was the 120 disciples that received the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost saved?
They werent only the Apostles were given the Spirit on that occasion Luke writes: Acs 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) These 120 people were in the upper room when Peter, James and John returned from Jesus assenction. They had a business meeting and elected Matthias to take Judas place.
Luke writes: Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. It says they were all with one accord in one place. It says all were filled with the Holy Ghost. It does not say 12 were filled with the Holy Ghost.
EMA writes: Did everyone accept it from the foundation of the world, or even when it was presented No and they still haven't and don't because they choose not too.
EMA writes: EMA writes: After his death and resurrection he appointed a way for for forgiveness of sins to be applied and that was through Belief and baptism.
ICANT writes: Do you have scripture to support this assertion? Yes of course. "Howbeit when he the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth" What does the Spirit coming to lead the disciples in all truth have to do with making disciples and baptizing them? That statement does not address your assertion.
EMA writes: It was true before during and after his resurrection. Im not getting the point of your one line questions, do you have a point to make with them or are going to keep quizing me Glad to see you agree Jesus is the only way. I keep asking short questions because it is the only way I can get a specific answer from you. You normally inject something else into the debate as we go forward with a long disortation.
EMA writes: Again ICANT you are being way to detailed and specifc with matters that are intertwined and interrelated. certainly greek words have meanings, but they do not have to carry the full wieight of an idea in one word all the time. I must be specific. I will stand before Jesus one day and give an account of every word I have ever typed on this web site as well as every word I spoke or wrote elsewhere. Jesus was very specific when He was talking to His disciples.
EMA writes: Actually there is not an ORDER here as you suggest as much as there is a process of things to achieve a desired result. the forgiveness of sins I thought you had agreed earlier that a person had to believe first before they could be saved.
EMA writes: If you want to be that specific I could equally argue that to teach involves both the process of descipleship and baptism as the crowning result of how to make them fully desciples, because this is exacally what Christ commanded in mark 16:16. How can you teach someone who does not have the Holy Spirit to lead them and guide them in all truth any spiritual lesson? BTW you or I or anyone else can declare, claim or teach anything we desire but that does not mean it is Biblical truth.
Luke writes: Acts 22:8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. 22:10 And I said, What shall I do, LORD? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do. Saul realized this was a powerful entity as said "who art thou Lord". Jesus then told Saul who He was, "I am Jesus of Nazareth". He believed Jesus. At that moment Saul received eternal life and his spirit was sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. Saul then enquired what "what shall I do, Lord"? Saul was totally comitted to Jesus at this point in his life.
Luke writes: Acts 22:11 And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus. 22:12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, 22:13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him. 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. 22:15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Ananias said: "Brother Saul receive thy sight." Why did Ananias call him brother if he was still a Pharisee? He then informed Saul he was a very special one who would be a witness to all men. He then asked what Saul was waiting on. He then stated arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins calling on the name of the Lord. The order is still in effect. Saul meet Jesus the Word. He heard Jesus. When told who this voice was he accepted Jesus as Lord. He then committed to doing his will. That made him a disciple, a follower of Jesus. He was then baptized. He then went to school to learn the all things Jesus had commanded.
Galatians 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.5
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Re: Premillennialism
Hi EMA,
EMA writes: Again I see what you are saying, lets see if the doctrine is valid to begin with, Premillennialism, that is Do you have any idea what Premillennialism is? Pre means before. Millennialism millenniam means 1000 years. So Premillennialism is the doctrine that Jesus will return in the air and the Church is caught out, disciples judged according to their works and rewarded accordingly and the marriage supper of the Lamb takes place prior to the 1000 year reign of Christ spoken of in the book of Revelation which begins when Jesus puts His feet in the same place He left from. Maybe when we get through with this discussion we could study Premillennialism. God Bless, Edited by ICANT, : remove smiley
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.5
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Re: FELLOWSHIP
Hi EMA,
EMA writes: Certainly, but this has nothing to do with whether baptism is a part of he New covenant and whether it is necessary for salvation. You are ixing up two different ideas But it has everything to do with the way of Jesus.
Mark writes: 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. There are many places where Jesus said follow me. Here He was talking to the people when He said follow me. To follow Jesus you would have to be a son of God prior to being baptized. Since He was the Son of God prior to being baptized.
EMA writes: "Well see that all the scriptures has to say about being or becoming a child of God, Just believe", when in fact jesus himself said, one must "be baptized, "to be saved". Those are not my words, they are his, so lets examine all he has to say, not just parts. But Jesus did not say you must be baptized to be saved. Jesus made a declarative statement declaring a fact.
Mark writes: 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Jesus stated a person who had believed and been baptized would be saved. Jesus stated any person that had not believed would be damned. He nowhere stated that a person who had not been baptized would be damned. In fact there is no such statement in the Bible. If you have a verse that makes that statement please present it.
EMA writes: The promise of the holy spirit was made to the Apostles. If as you suggest the holy spirit was given to those that heard Jesus voice prior to His departure only Peter, James and John was the only ones that received the holy spirit. Those three were the only ones on the mount with Jesus at His departure. If the all included the other apostles including the one elected after they came down from the mount, why did it not include all the people in the room.
Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. EMA writes: Nowhere in verses 12-26, does it say that the 120 disciples recieved the Holy Spirit baptism. read carefully It says all in the room received the Holy Spirit. Lets look at another instant of people receiving the Holy Spirit.
Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean. 10:29 Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me? 10:30 And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing, 10:31 And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God. 10:32 Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee. 10:33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God. 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all  10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; 10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. Peter preached the word. Peter told them that everyone that believed would receive remission of sins. At that point the Holy Spirit came on all those who believed and they began to speak with other tongues magnifying God. These people had become sons and daughters of God Peter then asked premission of those who had come with him from Joppa to baptize them. Then he commanded that they be baptized in the name of the Lord. God's order. Peter preached the word. The people heard the word. The people believed. The people received the Holy Spirit. Peter asked for permission to baptize the believers. The assembly that came with Peter from Joppa agreed. They were then baptized.
EMA writes: On pentecost Peter provided the new covenant method for all time to the end of the age for how we are to preach the gospel to the nations So you as catholics believe that Peter started the church on the day of Pentecost. As you believe Peter set the rules of a covenent. That means Jesus lied when He said: "I will build my church".
EMA writes: True but he hadnt obyed the gospel yet. He had not obeyed the gospel of EMA. But he had obeyed the gospel found:
John writes:
3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. He had obeyed the gospel Jesus gave to Nicodemus.
John writes: 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. There is no record of this man being baptized but there is a record that he provided a hundred pounds of spices for Jesus body after his death. Saul had also obeyed the gospel Peter preached to Cornelius and those in his house. When did Saul receive eternal life? Was it before his baptism or after? When did Cornelius receive eternal life? Was it before his baptism or after? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 93 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-05-2010 10:28 AM | | Dawn Bertot has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.5
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Re 1000
Hi EMA,
EMA writes: If 1000 is to be taken figuratively I will try to shed a little light on the subject.
Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. The devil is to be bound in the lake of fire for a thousand years. After the thousand years is up he must be loosed for a litle season. Those who have been judged will reign with Jesus a thousand years. The rest of the dead shall live not until the thousand years is up. You ask where this reign will take place. Well when the devil is loosed he will go into the four quarters of the earth to deceive the nations. That should tell you the reign will be on earth. A king must have a physical kingdom to reign over. At the moment the devil is still king of the earth this is his domain. The only thing that Christ rules over today is His Church. And He is having a hard job doing that as most of them have kicked Him out and He is standing outside knocking on the door trying to get in.
Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. This was written to the church at Laodicea.
EMA writes: "The sword that came from the mouth of him that sat on the horse". I dont think this was to be taken literally Jaywill Also, Look closely at verses 17 and 18 If you will remove the s from sword you will have the instrument Jesus will use to kill the people with.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Jesus spoke man into existence in Genesis 1:27. He will speak and all mankind who are gathered to this battel will die.
19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. You got a problem with an angel standing in the air between John and the sun? I got no problem with an angel standing on the sun or anywhere else he would want to stand. He is not human. You got a problem with the fowls of the air doing their job? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 101 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-07-2010 12:16 PM | | Dawn Bertot has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.5
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Re: FELLOWSHIP
EAM writes: First you write But Jesus did not say you must be baptized to be saved.
Jesus made a declarative statement declaring a fact. Then you write Jesus stated a person who had believed and been baptized would be saved. Shame on you ICANT for manuvering and manipulating these words to fit your doctrine. A person can only point out such silliness, as you write above, it cannot be reasoned with only avoided at all cost Its an odd situation, while I consider you a brother because you have believed and been baptized as you have clearly indicated in the past, I would make it a matter of fellowship and part company with you regarding your false teaching on Jesus' plain words and the subject of baptism. youve philosophized yourself around a plain and simple teaching EAM Mark writes: 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. I don't believe being baptized hurts anyone's chances of being saved. I do believe that a person who does not believe (trust) in Jesus Christ shall be damned. Regardless of how many times they have been baptized. I do not believe that a person who has trusted in Jesus to give them eternal life will be damned if they are not baptized. The gentile thief of the cross is postive proof of that. Since you have withdrawn fellowship from me this will be my last post to you. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.5
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Re: FELLOWSHIP
Hi EMA,
EMA writes: If this is your wish, then so be it, but you really should reconsider You mean you didn't withdraw fellowship?
EMA writes: Baptism ICANT is a type and part of belief, its all the samething. Baptizo meaning dip, plunge or sumerge. Baptism is an act preformed by someone on a particular subject. All the faith that is required is that the idiot doing the baptism won't hold you under the water until you drown.
EMA writes: "With the heart man believeth, with the mouth confession is made UNTO SALVATION" Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. eis translated unto does not have a meaning in order to obtain. It is mearly an announcement of what has taken place.
EMA writes: excally what is Faith Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. EMA writes: Belief, it is, an active living faith, of which are baptism, confession, repentance and faithfulness. Belief is to accept that something is a fact. Baptism is the immersion of a born again child of God by the authority of a scriptural New Testament Church. Confession is a public announcment that you have received Christ as your personal savior. Repentence is turning from your evil ways. Faithfulness is following Jesus where ever He leads.
EMA writes: Christ said "if you deny me before men I will deny you before my father in heaven, but if you confess (that is actively do this act of faith), I will confess you before my father in heaven." Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. He did not say "if you". He said, "whosoever shall deny me before men". We have a lot of people here at EvC that deny that God exists. They deny that Jesus exists and if He did he was the son of a german soldier. They deny the Bible is the Word of God. Yep those will never be mentioned before God the father.
Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. Why didn't Jesus say Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, and is baptized, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven?
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Why didn't John say: he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God and been baptized?
EMA writes: Paul simply replaced confession with baptism in this instance, showing that it is absolutley necessary for salvation. A public confession of Christ. How can you say a man can gain salvation without an active faith, in this instance, baptism and confession, not to mention repentance. These are not works ICANT, they are acts of faith. Paul said no such thing. You are putting words in his mouth. You can't even get your quotes straight.
EMA writes: How can you say a man can gain salvation without an active faith, Paul in Acts 16:31 said: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved. John in John 3:18 said: "He that believeth on him is not condemned" I think I am in pretty good company when I say all a person has to do to be saved is accept the offer of a free full pardon that God has offered to all mankind. If I understand what you are saying you believe you have to believe the facts about Jesus, you have to make a public profession, you have to repent, and be baptized in order to be saved. And if one of those is missing you are still lost. You can correct me on this if it is not correct. You equate belief with faith and they are two different things.
Hbr 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. In order to be saved you must believe that God is and is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. This is the only active part you have in your salvation. In other words you have to accept Gods offer of the gift of eternal life.
Romans 6:23For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. You are not saved by your faith but by the Faith of Jesus Christ. I submit the following verses as evidence.
Romans 3:21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: Gods righteousness imparted to them that believe by faith of Jesus Christ. 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Justified by His grace through Christ.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Man is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ. We have believed in Jesus Christ that we might be justified by the faith of Christ.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. The promise given to those that believe by the faith of Jesus Christ. Not even your faith. Conclusions: 1. Eternal life is a gift of God. It can not be earned, or bought only accepted. 2. Eternal life is by the faith of Jesus Christ. To all those who believe. 3. The only part mankind has in his salvation is accepting God's gift of eternal life.
John 10:27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand. 30 I and [my] Father are one. I believe that every person who has accepted God's offer of eternal life and been born of the Holy Spirit will follow Jesus as He said. To begin to follow Jesus we must be baptized. To follow Jesus we must be active in His Church. To follow Jesus we must remain faithful unto death as He did. I believe that anyone who has truly been born again will do these things.
EMA writes: Christ as God and the son of God had the right to do with the sins of people as he wished. He gave this right to the Apostles, because he knew they would be speaking through the Spirit and by his inspiration. Jesus came to do the will of the Father and that was to die for the sins of the world. John 3:16 Jesus gave the Apostles no such authority. The Apostles could not die for someones sins and neither could they forgive their sins.
EMA writes: If you think Iam being to nit picky about salvation, I can only quote what is written. You don't quote what is written. You say what you want to be written or what you have been told is written. I would love to see you quote what is written without adding your bias.
EMA writes: Am I telling you or someone they will be damned, no I am telling you that it appears that one must be baptized to be saved. You sure could have fooled me by all the references you made to the fact that if a person was not baptized they were not saved. That it was necessary for a person to be saved. You have been taught you have to be baptized in order to be saved. So why does it now begin to appear that it was (is) necessary for a person to be saved. The problem is there is no verse in the Bible that says it is necessary to be baptized in order to receive eternal life. Eternal life is a gift of God and when a person hears the Word of God and the Spirit convicts them of that fact they can then accept the gift or reject the gift, their choice. Now don't get me wrong baptism is very important. You cannot be a member of the Lords Church without scriptural baptism. You can not be in the Bride of Christ without scriptural baptism. That would exclude a person from a lot of rewards and blessings, as the Bride is going to live in the New Jerusalem which has 12 gates for those on the outside to go in and out of. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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