What constitutes matters of Brotherhood and Fellowship?

I will have a response out today concerning your latest coments. In the meantime and in keeping with this thread I noticed you called this a heresy. So would and do you make this issues a matter of fellowship and brotherhood.Just a short answer not one of the long onesEAM

Lest anyone think that Icant and myself hate eachother or are angry at eachother, we are not. This is what brothers do, they discuss things int he hopes for a solution.If ther e is no solution he is still first, my brother. He is my elder brother, both in the faith and years and I hold himin the highest regard for that reasonBut on this topic he is mistaken. Antlers Oklahoma, thats funny.Ahhhhh, the trick question
It never ceases to amaze me how people can ask and respond toquestions,without evaluating the validity of the question for accuracy intthe first place. this is a perfect example. there is no such thing as a child of the devil.The devil never gave birth, paid a price for anyone. When Christ said you are a product of your father the devil, he did not mean father in that sense. He simply meant you are acting like him. We are a prduct of our own mind, thedevildidnt MAKE us do ,it, we did it own our ownSo, a person that is alienated from God through free will , sin, is a proper candidate for baptism. you baptize a sinner. he is neithe a child of God or a child of Satan.EMA writes:Here it is again, Ill keep asking it to see if you will touch it.
If the only proper candidate for baptism is a believer in Christ, would it be necessary for Christ to repeat the need to NOT be baptized in the latter part of the verse, Yes or No? Please present the questions I have avoided Yes, and did you have anything to say about my response, No. You were Silent as the stars.A declarative statement has nothing to do with the fact that at somepoint the conditions of that statement are applicable. If declaritive statements are never conditional, then all the statements concerning belief in Jesus to be saved would also benon-conditional as well. Are you willing to adhere to this inevitable conclusion of your own piece of evidence? Yes?EMA writes:
Your implication from this usage of such a statment is that it requires nothing of the hearer, correct. It is not a statement of condition. Given that fact ICANT, even BELIEF IN CHRIST then would not be necessary if your contenion, concerning declarative statements is true.Icant writesRinnnnnnnnnnng, Johnny give the man a prize. Right Right and conditional when applied toan actual individual obedientact Wrong thats an ignorant statement wrong you just contradicted Christ, acts 2:38 and every exampleofconversion in the NTThe statement also makes a further statement of fact. True, now tellme the difference in not being saved and being damned Absolutley unequivocally wrong. How many times do I need to keep telling you that if a person does not believe baptism is pointless in the first place, he therefore did not need to repeat the requirement of baptism What is the oppositeof saved? Would damned be another expression for unsaved?ICANT writesQuestion here ICANTICUS. When does belief in jesus christ ever become conditionalJphn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.Rom 3:26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.You can find 61 times in 51 verses where baptized was used and none of them are in a conditional statement to receiving eternal life nor receiving damnation if no baptism was performed. Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter BibleYou can find 22 times in 22 verses where baptism was used and none of them are in a conditional statement to receiving eternal life nor receiving damnation if no baptism was performed. Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible
You can find 9 times in 7 verses where baptize was used and none of them are a conditional statement to receiving eternal life nor receiving damnation.Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible
I can not find a conditional statement in the Bible that says if you are baptized you will be saved.
I can not find a conditional statement in the Bible that says you will be damned if you are not baptized.
I can not find a declarative statement in the Bible that says you will be damned if you are not baptized. [/qs]You simply dont understand the similarities or differences in a conditional and declarative statement. Youve constructed a rule that is perpousterous and only applies to verses you wish that definition to be applied. Your same rule applied to verses that only mention belief are also declarative statements No problem, just tell me what the opposite of "saved" is. Tell me what the opposite of "shall be saved", is. Ill try and help you out aliitle further. Do you think it is coincidental that Christ uses the expressions, saved and damned in the same verse in connection with the samething. Im going to bet one is the opposite of the other. Then tellme what Christ makes as A REQUIREMENT TO BEING SAVED, is it being baptized, why yes it is. When you decide what the opposite of being saved is, then you will have your answer as to whether baptism is a requirementill ask you the question again. Can a person that does not believe in Jeusus CHrist be properly and scripturally baptized? Yes or No? Im sure I dont understand every aspect of it,but Ido know you may not
because you keep using expressions like, baptisimal regeneration, which is a nonsensical term.EMA writes:
I love you brother but you really havent thought any of these things through have you?ICANT writes EMA writes:
John like Christ, would not make such a statement like you just put in their mouth, No you didnt misquote him, you simply misunderstand him. The mental exercise of belief is in his statement, with the rest of the desires that Christ issued in mark 16;16 Do you mean to imply that Mark and Matthew are not inspired. If you need it from John it is in chapter 3:5, One must be born of water and the Spirit. Now tell me if this does not echo what Paul said when he stated,"We are baptized BY one Spirit into one body" an exact comparison to the statement to Nicodemus. Since all writers are inspired, it is not necessary for each writer to state the samethng. Secondly, if you understood the concept of a Synecdche, then Johns statements would make sense to you verses baptism. Baptism is simply faith in response to Gods wishes.EMA writes:
Hence you are saved by grace (free gift) through Faith (obedience, belief and baptism), that not of yourself, it is the gift of God Let me ask you a question. Is the verse I quoted above a declarative statement? If so, when do the things in it apply?secondly brother I cannot coat what christ already DECLARED. But even declarative statements and their conditions have to APPLY at somepoint, otherwise they make no sense.Why would one want to ignore that which Christ has so completely declared? Why would one refuse to themselves and others the right to be baptizd by the Spirit into the Christs body, as Paul so apply explains. You cant be a part of the body, simply by believing, not according to Christ and not according to Paul, brother.Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: All anyone has to do is what Chist asked them to do if that is believe then it is believ, if it is believe and be baptized,EMA writes:
Do you not know that no person or yourself can actually baptize you? That while they assist you it is actually the Holy Spirit that baptizes you. Listen, For we were all baptized BYYYY one Spirit into one body the Holy Spirit is the one doing the Baptizing. You do nothing but be obedient as in Belief Because they were not yet a part of the bodyof Christ, ill expalinWhile there is one baptism, there are elements and purposes for a specific type of baptism in the Holy Spirit. Example, now pay attention please. Peter said, "repent and be baptized, everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins ND YE SHALL RECIEVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.Jesus said, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be condemned. And these signs shall follow them that believe.. They shall...."Here are two parallel passages, equal in all their parts. now we know from Pauls statement in 1 Cor 12 that it is the Spirit that baptizes us INTOTHE BODY.Yet here we see another aspect of the Spirit that is given after one becomes a child of God, THE MIRACULOUS. They are the same Spirit with two different measures of the Spirit through his baptism. Baptism IN the Holy Spirit was for the purposes of emersing persons in his power,to perform the miraculous. Baptism BY the Holy Spirit was for the purpose of making them children of God by belief and baptism in water.Very few and none living today recieve/d the baptism IN the Holy Spirit, that is why you do not see the miraculous before or after conversion. All recieve baptism BY the Spirit for the purpose of making them a part of the body. No baptism BY the Spirit in the water, equals not BEING in the body or saved Thats excally what I am sayingI love your simplicity ICANT, is so cute at times. You remind me of Hillell and Shami, the two rabinical priests that argued over, whether you should get out of bed on the sabbath and whether getting out of bed constitued work on the sabbath. so people eating meals they had prepared the day beofre ewas work because they exerted force in thedirection of their mouth.When the bible speaks of works in relation to justification before God, it means that which a mans mind can produce to justify his action in rationalizing that he is now acceptable to God, due to his own thinking, disregarding what God may or may not have saidThe legal definition ofWORK is not applicable in the scriptual, more SPIRITUAL sense of the word brother trying to force wordly definitions into spiritual matters only goes so far. Remember,"the natural man recieves NOT the things of the Spirit, for they are spiritually undecernable" Thats why arguing bible "doctrine" as doctrine,not as moral principles, with say, heritic, is a waste of time. IMV. Jaywill however seems suited to the task. quote:He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.Are you calling Jesus a liar when He said in John 6:47:
quote:Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. The conditions in delarative statements APPLY at some point, I defy you to demonstrate otherwise. If they do not, then as I stated beofre even belief in Christ is NOT required. Another translation is not required,you simply need to understand the one you haveAs you call this a heresy do you make it a matter of fellowship?EAM
God Bless,Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

Hi EMA, That is the title of the lesson in a college text book named Defense of the Faith.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Simple question to end this debate once and for all:If baptism were necessary for salvation, a point he seems adamant on, then how was the repentant thief on the cross able to enter in to heaven?This throws aside all the dogma and allows Jesus to answer the question for him... Not Paul... Not Peter.... Not the Pope nor his entourage of pederasts.... But Jesus alone.EMA, without even realizing it, has made baptism a Law requiring conditions to "achieve" salvation. Last time I checked my bible though, Jesus died to end the law. Just as circumcision in the flesh is no longer necessary, circumcision therefore takes place in the heart of the believer. The outward manifestation is then merely symbolic of something that has already taken place internally in the heart of the believer; no different than communion or circumcision, baptism is merely an outward act which publically declares obedience to Christ henceforth -- a symbolic gesture of washing away sin, lest ordinary water has the power to save people's souls.Anything less than salvation by grace through faith alone makes baptism a law. If it is a law then it completely invalidates the entire premise of the cross and it makes it necessary for a 3rd party to save you! If baptism were necessary for salvation then you need a minister, priest, pastor, rabbi, etc to assist in saving you. In other words, complete nonsense.Checkmate EMA.

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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

Hi EMA,Shalom and not the short definition. I am going to guess that you are not old enough to know what those old Church of Christ preachers used in their vocabulary.I have heard that statement made by Ward Hogland many times in debates during the 60's concerning baptism as a requirement for salvation.I didn't know the Church of Christ believed everybody was a child of God and going to spend eternity with Him. The Greek word Jesus used for father is patr and means: 1) generator or male ancestor. I am pretty sure Jesus knew what He was saying.But you are correct just as your father could not make you do anything that you did not choose to do neither can the devil make you do anything you choose not to do.As far as that goes when a person is saved and receives eternal life God can not make them do anything the do not choose to do. He can make you wish you had but He can't and won't make you do anything.That is the reason God created man with an ability to choose. The angels do not have that option. Not even the devil and his angels.If a person is not born again and baptized he does not have eternal life. Is this true? I will answer for you from your posts Yes.When does that person become a child of God?If he is not God's child whose is he? I baptize a person who has heard the gospel. About the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ for their sins. That have accepted that sacrifice for their sins knowing they can not pay the penalty for their sins or satisfy God outside of the sacrifice of Calvary for their sins. A person that has made a public profession of this trust they have put in the sacrifice of Christ to give them eternal life for trusting Him to take care of their sins. A person that has received the Holy Spirit and has made a visible change in their life that the Church can see fruit of their repentance. When the Church is satisfied that a person has truly had a change in their life the Church authorizes me to baptize them.I baptize a sinner who has trusted Christ for salvation and shown results in fruits and when I have performed the act of baptism I have a wet sinner who has trusted Christ for salvation and shown results in fruits and has now declared to the Church that they have died unto themselves and have been raised to walk in a newness of life following Jesus Christ. Where is the verse in the Bible that states you must believe in order to be saved.I find where Jesus said "you must be born again to see the kingdom of heaven." But that does not say anything about believing.I find a lot of scriptures that says a person that believes has eternal life.I find scripture that says "he that believeth shall not be damned.I find a lot of scriptures that say if a person does not believe they will perish.I find scripture that says a person that believes and is baptized shall be saved.But no place in the Bible do I find it said that a person who is not baptized shall be damned.I find where a person who has not believed is condemned already.But I don't find where a person who has not been baptized is condemned already. You did not give where Jesus made that statement.Peter did make the statement: Peter said those things to a bunch of people who had heard the gospel and had been convicted by the Holy Spirit.They heard, believed, and had been convicted by the Holy Spirit.
It was then time for them to turn from their trusting in the law and be baptized into the church. Peter did not know they already had the Holy Spirit because he did not get it until at least 3 1/2 years after his baptism. You are correct every statement concerning a person believing has eternal life is a declarative statement. Simply stating a fact.Every verse that says a person who does not believe shall perish, be damned, and is condemned already are declarative statements.There does not exist a declarative statement that he who is not baptized is condemned already, shall perish, or be damned. A child of the Devil. Shall be Damned. No. Christ makes absolutely no requirement to being saved. No When I have a scripture that says "He that is not baptized shall be damned". I will believe it is necessary to receive eternal life. No.A person must be born again before they are a fit subject for baptism. That means they have to hear the gospel, believe the gospel, be sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption which makes them a child of the King. Then they are a fit subject to be buried with Christ and raised to walk in a newness of life participating in the fellowship of the Church that provided authority for their baptism. If a person is a lost sinner when he is baptized and comes out of the water a saved child of the King that means the baptism is what produced the saving.Thus that person was transformed into a child of the King by the act of being dunked under water for the purpose of becoming a child of the King and receiving eternal life.

quote:

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Baptismal regeneration, the literal meaning of which is "being generated again" (regeneration) "through baptism" (baptismal), is the doctrine within some Christian denominations that holds that salvation is dependent upon, or more precisely, mediated through, the act of baptism; in other words, baptismal regenerationists believe that it is ordinarily necessary for one to be baptized in order to be saved

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SourceBut you accused me of putting words in his mouth. That is misquoting. IOW saying something John did not say. John told Nicodemus: The Bible is its own best interpreter.Jesus told Nicodemus he must be born again to see the kingdom of heaven.Nicodemus wanted to know how that was possible.Jesus told Nicodemus he had to have two births, one of water and the other of the Spirit.In verse 6 Jesus explained the two births that was necessary to enter the kingdom of heaven.Man must have a physical birth first. Last I checked a person is carried for 9 months in a sac of water until just prior to entering this world with the flesh birth.Man must have a spiritual birth which takes place when the Holy Spirit seals the spirit of a regenerated born again child of God.There is no baptism taught in these verses. Are you saying this is water baptism?Because the text says We are immersed by one spirit into one body. The Greek word translated body is sma which means 1) the body both of men or animals. That is a long way from the body of Christ, or even the family of God.I guess a drowning man will grab at any straw. As I said you did not quote the scripture you have a bad habit of that. You coated the scripture by saying what you wanted it to say and adding your personal thoughts to the text. This is what the text says. But you did coat it when you dressed it up with you comments.
You added gift of God extra and also you added obedience, belief and baptism.That is called adding to what is written not quoting. I wonder that about you. Why do you ignore the statement Jesus made in Mark 16:16 which says "he that believeth not shall be damned." And read it to say he that is baptized not shall be damned. You can be a member of God's family without being baptized but you can not be a member or the Church Jesus started when He called Peter and Andrew to be fishers of men.Every person that was not called by Jesus and was numbered in the 120 has been added to the Church by baptism. That is the reason Peter ask permission of the Church that had traveled with him to see Cornelius to baptize all who had believed and received the Holy Spirit.But you can be a member of neither unless you are immersed in the Holy Spirit for that is how you are born again. But there are and can be no conditions in a declarative statement.A declarative makes a statement of fact.A conditional statement is one that states if you do a certain thing you will receive a certain thing in return, which means if you don't do that certain thing you won't receive what you were to receive if you did that certain thing.Example I will provide a nice juicy steak if you will come by and visit with me.What happens if you don't come visit?As I stated before nowhere in the bible is it stated that belief was a requirement to receive eternal life. It is stated many times if you don't believe you are condemned already, will perish, or are damned. I understand the one I have I just don't understand the one you keep coating from as you add too much to what is written in the text. Some of my best friends are devout Jews, Atheist, and all of them are sinners. Some are saved sinners and some are lost sinners. I am like Jesus I love everybody but isn't that what He commanded me to do.He commanded me to love God above everything with all my being.He commanded me to love my neighbor just as much as I love myself.He left no room to exclude anyone.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Hyroglyphx, According to EMA he was under the old covenant. But according to EMA Jesus was not talking about salvation He was talking about the old covenant. No EMA did not make it a law. He has been taught it is necessary by his church which adopted it from the Catholic Church. His church is The Church of Christ.Maybe one day the scales will fall from his eyes and he will see the truth. Jesus as He hung on the cross said: "It is Finished" The sin debt of the entire world had been paid.Anything added to what Jesus did on the cross nulifies what Jesus said was finished.The only thing a person can do to receive the free gift of God is receive it.So the only thing you have to do is believe He will give you the gift free of charge.The legal definition of gift has been put forth 2 times so far.I will coat it here A gift is something given for nothing in return. It does not become a gift until received.There are two instances where a President of the US has offer a free full pardon to men who refused to accept them because they had to admit guilt they both died for their convictions.One of these made it to the Supreme Court which ruled that the man could not be forced to receive the pardon as it was not in effect until accepted. He was executed the following morning at his request.Had either accepted the pardon they could have walked out of jail and went free.God has offered salvation to anyone who will believe and there is no strings attached.But in my experience I have found that any person who is born of the Spirit is never the same again. They are a new creature in Christ Jesus.But if anyone adds anything or requires anything other than the sacrifice on the cross they make the death of Jesus on the Cross of none effect and declare Jesus lied when He said: "It is finished".God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

When you choose to be honest and deal w/ a single argument I have presented on this topic, Ill will consider you a worth oppoent in this discussion.ICANT has failed and continuously ignores any argument that contradicts his positionCheckmate Hydro, you cant be serious? deal with the arguments first, then claim some sort of victoryIll get to yours and ICANT recent post, that is if there is anything I havent already addressed 20 to 30 times.In the meantime. Not only was the theif under a different covenant, but he was in direct contact with the Law giver, Jesus Christ, as was the cripled man, let down throught he roof, to whom he proclaimed, your sins are forgiven you.Now under the old law it was necessary for him to present himself to the priest on the day of Atonment, Christ set this aside because he was the law giver"That you may know that the son of man has power to forgive sins""The sonof Man is LOOOOOOOOORRRRRRDDDD, even of the sabbath"After his death (Hebrews 9) a new covenant he put in place was now in affect, as perscribed throught the Apostles by his direction"Whatsoever you bind on earth is bound in heaven", etc, etcThey, the Apostles bound both belief and baptism by command and example, that which is contained in Mark 16:16, because this is and was Christ's wishes for the New covenant.The Apostles simply transmitted it by revelation of the Holy SpiritNow I am tired of answering the same arguments over and over, with no rebuttalsIf you or ICANT are serious about this debate, please get to itEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

EMA writes:
"We are baptized BY one Spirit into one body" an exact comparison to the statement to Nicodemus This is the type of nonsense and stupidity I am tired of dealing with. Look and 1 Cor 12, 13 and 14 and tell me that you dont know he is talking about the body of Christ how can you be taken serious as a debater or Bible student when you sidestep even the simplest of pointsDo you want me to take you serious or not. Here is an example. I never made any knucklehead comment such as you state above either directly or indirectly. heck your above statement doesnt even make logical sense Catholics believe Jesus is the son of God ICANT, you believe Jesus is the Son of God. Did you borrow you belief from the catholics or did you get it from the scriptures This coming from the brother that thinks it is a WORK to walk down the isle to be baptizedEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

Hi EMA, If the body and the Church are the same thing why did he not use body in this verse. I could quote Red Butler but I will simply say it really doesn't make any difference to me, what you do I have presented what the Bible says.Quoting your favorite verse: This verse says:He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.It also says: BUT he that believeth not shall be damnedThis verse does not say: BUT he that is baptized not shall be damned.You can not produce a verse in the Bible that makes that statement.You can produce the book of Mormons that does say that also the Catholic Church decrees.If you want to stick your head in the sand plug your ears and refuse to accept what the Bible says I can't do anything about it.God Bless,Edited by ICANT, : No reason given.

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Excuse EMA but I've sent three messages to you, this being the only time you've responded, and at no point have you answered a single question I posed to you. I'm not ICANT. ICANT can deal with his own arguments. What different covenant might that be? No one can offer salvation but God, right? Would you agree? That being the case then neither were baptised, both were saved simply by grace.And yet we see another biblical contradiction, because make no mistake what you and ICANT are arguing about is biblical contradictions. Jesus offers salvation before he ever said "It is finished" and atoned for the sins of all. If he offers salvation beforehand, then what is the purpose of his crucifixion? So let me get this straight. The Apostles now save souls? Because how could it be any other way if what you say is true? You are making baptism a law, a requirement for salvation, an act, a good work, the necessity of 3rd parties in order to achieve salvation.You have made baptism the new circumcision. That's either a false doctrine or it's a biblical contradiction. Take your pick.

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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

It is almost providental that you showed up here asking these silly questions, like "Which covenant is that"?Here is why it is providence? I have been asking ICANT over and over and over, whether the proper candidate for baptism is he that believes in Jesus Christ, to which he never offers an answer.he knows that my implication is that fi the only proper candidate is a person that believes in Jesus Christ, there was no need for Jesus to repeat the command to be baptized in the latter part of the verse.Hey are you the atheist ICANT tried out his 3 by 5 card experiment on?Now I have an atheist/agnostic here trying to explain the plan of salvation from the scriptures. here is a simple question Hyro.Is Jesus Christ the son of God? Now not according to the scripture but in your view, Is jesus Christ the son of God? Yes or No? Have you been on this planet the last few weeks. have you read any of the thread? This is excally what I am talking about you dont even understand, the basic principles of the plan of salvation, yet you want to speak to the specifics.fear not, while I do not have time, and I mean that literally, it is my hope that I can convince Jaywill to answer the above questions while I am engaged in this very involved discussion with ICANTNo disresect friend but you dont even understand the simplest concepts Excally my point. Jaywill do you accept this task to explain to him these simple concepts.Thanks in advanceEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.

Its funny you give this Gene Wilder clip, as I interested in starting a new 'short' thread entiled "Time to laugh alittle, a bit of comedy relief" Lets all take a short breakIn which I want people to present two or three of what they think are the funniest scenes (ever) on televison or movies, then short comments explaining why they think they are the funniestI dont know if such a thing is allowed or if will work, but I dont have the technical savy to know how to transfer clips to a postSo how do you do that first, then i will present it to Admin, then my two clipsYes I know what you are thinking, if you dont have time for one why do have time for this one. The other questions are very involved, this should take no great effortEAMEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.

Hi Hyroglyphx, Actually the sin debt was paid before the first man was formed from the dust of the ground.Everyone saved during the OT days were saved looking forward to the sacrifice that would come. John tells us Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world.
It was just consumated on the cross at Calvary.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi jaywill, Where do you get two condiions from in Mark 16:16? You get the statement that a he who believes and is baptized.You do not have a conditional clause.It does not say If a person believes and is baptized he will be saved.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi EMA, In Message 63 I answered a question you asked in Message 60: It seems like I answered your question on 4/30 in my 5th post on this thread.In Message 140 I made the statement: Questions I asked.In Message 61 I asked the following questions. Your attempt to answer all these questions in Message 62. In Message 64 I stated: I am still waiting for the explanation of how a person can cease to be a child of God's after being born into His family.In Message 90 I asked a question to the answer you had given to a question. I was just establishing that baptism did not make Jesus , God the Son.Just as baptism can't make you a son of God.In Message 130 I asked for the second time: Also same message. When I get time I will go back and search your messages just to make sure I should still be waiting for answers to these questions.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."