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Member (Idle past 93 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The UK Election!!!! | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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... They have voted in an overtly left wing government that is going to implement policies that will directly challenge the IMF, ECB and world bank and which will bring them into direct conflict with Germany specifically and the neo-liberal hegemony more generally. What they are challenging is whether the EU imposed austerity measures are the correct path to take to resolve the economic issues. It isn't. Austerity only prolongs the economic problems and provides no solution. Meanwhile people suffer until the ignored processes that actually work to resolve the problem work their way through the morass created by austerity programs. One only has to look at the US where the GOP has done everything they could to prevent recovery and job growth, anything that would make Obama look good. It's taken six years of austerity and failure to act, but the growth from the bottom has started anyway and has reached the point now where true recovery is beginning anyway. The only ones that benefit from the austerity programs are the ones that caused the economic crisis -- the big banks and corrupt politicians in the banker pockets rolling back regulations on banks and "bailing out" (paying off) the banks that caused the problem with excessive greed and zero compassion for the working people. If you are truly interested in resolving the economic problem you will:
For starters. I realize some of you will be somewhat bewildered by some of this, but it is because the US is rather backward compared to the EU countries and you already have some of these items.
It's certainly brave. But I can't help thinking that whatever the political, or even economic, rights and wrongs of this the forces against Greece are just too overwhelming for it to end well for them. I fear they will be made an example of by the powers that be determined to show what happens to those who reject the established economic consensus. Or they will be the spark that ignites protest in the rest of the EU from the workers that are feeling the brunt of the austerity measures. Spain is having an election soon and they are taking a long strong look at what happens in Greece.
Interesting to see how it pans out and whether, as many may hope, Greece is the first small step towards a different kind of politics in Europe. And maybe in the world, if it comes to the recognition that capitalism inevitably results in economic collapse without strong, lasting and socially oriented controls. With the increase in productivity of workers from increasing AI\robot assistance we need a different paradigm than having all people working 9 to 5 jobs. If we instead say that people deserve a guaranteed base annual salary for participating in the economy, then people can pursue fulfilling careers, from art to science to engineering and architecture and medical care, etc, without it being a decision predicated on how much you make, how many hours you work and how much you go to college. The world could work on part time. The question is whether workers will demand their fair share of the production improvements or allow it to be concentrated in the greedy corporations. We do no need fracking for oil, the world does not want fracking for oil as it destroys whole ecologies and destroys groundwater. A socially and ecologically aware society would not build the KXL pipeline but would replace it with solar and wind energy [/rant] Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Straggler Member (Idle past 93 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
RAZ writes: What they are challenging is whether the EU imposed austerity measures are the correct path to take to resolve the economic issues. That is absolutely the priority and indeed the starting point. But it goes further than that. It is about challenging the systems that gave rise to the crisis that austerity has been the prescribed response to. Syriza's stated aim is to take on the oligarchs and financial elites that have crippled Greeces economy for decades as well as to take on the merchants of austerity. They are seen as different aspects of the same wider problem.
RAZ writes: Spain is having an election soon and they are taking a long strong look at what happens in Greece. Very much so. If Spain does something similar to Greece that will be incredibly significant because Spain is a large European economy where Greece is a relatively small one. Those interested should have a look at Podemos RAZ writes: If you are truly interested in resolving the economic problem you will:.. In the UK we lack the firebrand leftwingers of Greece and Spain. But, in policy terms at least, we have the relatively cuddly Green party as the closest equivalents. Currently polling in at around 10%. The reason I mention them is that their policies seem to fairly closely match your own mini-manifesto (outlined here and elsewhere at EvC). It's a stance I have a lot of sympathy with in principle, but I am not convinced it adds up financially. The following is a link to an interview with the leader of the UK Green party putting forward things like a 'Citizens Income'. The interviewer in question avoids challenging any of the premises the policies are based on and instead ruthlessly pursues the economics of such policies. It is uncomfortable viewing.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Straggler writes: It is about challenging the systems that gave rise to the crisis that austerity has been the prescribed response to. Syriza's stated aim is to take on the oligarchs and financial elites that have crippled Greeces economy for decades as well as to take on the merchants of austerity. They've also got to examine the mote in their own eye. There is a general culture of tax avoidance from top to bottom in Greece - everybody participates from the large to the small. It's got to change if they want to progress.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
In the UK we lack the firebrand leftwingers of Greece and Spain. But, in policy terms at least, we have the relatively cuddly Green party as the closest equivalents. Currently polling in at around 10%. The reason I mention them is that their policies seem to fairly closely match your own mini-manifesto (outlined here and elsewhere at EvC). It's a stance I have a lot of sympathy with in principle, but I am not convinced it adds up financially. The following is a link to an interview with the leader of the UK Green party putting forward things like a 'Citizens Income'. ... Most likely at least one of the reasons that the Green Party is not as strong in UK as in other parts of EU is that a lot of the other issues I listed are already taken care of.
... The interviewer in question avoids challenging any of the premises the policies are based on and instead ruthlessly pursues the economics of such policies. It is uncomfortable viewing.
Link Curiously I found it intriguing that he agreed with policy in a lot of areas in spite of his economic blind spot. He also committed a couple of logical errors, such as reducing military spending with eliminating it. One point I would make is that the guaranteed income would (a) boost all income levels and (b) increase spending by those at the bottom -- spending that must de facto end up in somebody else's pocket as increased income that would be taxed. The woman did mention how wages would have to adjust once people did not have to rely on wages to live, and how then garbage collectors may need to be paid more ... but then did not tie that back into them being in a higher tax bracket as a result. Net result would be workers getting more in wages, and then paying the taxes on that increased income. If you are going to ask me to flip burgers for you, then you will need to pay me enough to interest me in doing that work. And you better respect the workers or they will just walk out on you. And I thought he was relatively disingenuous in saying that all the top earners would high tail it out of the country when the amount of tax increase was not discussed. A 1% tax increase does not drive addicts away from cigarettes, and these people are addicted to accumulating (but not always spending) money. Losing them from the economy could actually improve the remaining economy. Do you want people who are net hoarders of money and people who are net destroyers of the ecology in the pursuit of greater wealth as opposed to social responsibility?
... The interviewer in question avoids challenging any of the premises the policies are based on and instead ruthlessly pursues the economics of such policies. It is uncomfortable viewing. As productivity improves so more work can be done with fewer work hours, the question becomes how the wealth of that work is distributed -- do we continue to permit the greedy rich to hoard the proceeds or do we distribute it to the population with guaranteed living income and part time work by those interested in working to earn more, dividing up the work hours between more people.
Very much so. If Spain does something similar to Greece that will be incredibly significant because Spain is a large European economy where Greece is a relatively small one. Those interested should have a look at Podemos Indeed.
quote: About the time of the Occupy Movement actions around the world ... AFAIK Spain does not have the social safety net that France and UK have, and that could spark more unrest in the worker ranks. We've had a swing to more conservative governments here, in Canada, and in the EU countries ... maybe its time for the pendulum to swing the other way ... Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Straggler Member (Idle past 93 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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Hilarious.
Rap
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Breaking today ...
quote: Could be game changing for the EU. Is this the beginning of an "EU Spring"? Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Straggler Member (Idle past 93 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
The first of the UK election "debates". For whatever reason the two protagonists don't actually debate each other but instead face an interview with the renowned (in the UK)"rottweiller" of a political interviewer Jeremy Paxman. Frankly I think David Cameron made a mistake opting for that format as he probably would have had an easier time going head to head with the leader of the opposition. There is also a section for each leader to face questions from a studio audience.
It actually starts about 50 seconds in and can be found here if anyone is interested...
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