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Author Topic:   Not enough room in DNA
Dr Jack
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Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 10 of 139 (555307)
04-13-2010 3:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jpatterson
04-12-2010 3:39 PM


Hi J Patterson, and welcome to EvC,
Does anyone seriously believe that every last detail of human anatomy (from toenails to hair), physiology, and supposedly genetically determined behavior could fit in 200 textbooks?
No, no-one believes that. The genome does not even specify things like how exactly your blood vessels are routed, or how precisely the connections of the optic nerve are arranged between your eyes and your brains. What it contains are the mechanisms (note: mechanisms - not information, not instructions) that allow a human body to grow under the circumstances in which it grows.
Take a gene that codes for a protein - the major part of the genome that we understand - the genome only produces the sequence of amino acids within that protein, the three-dimensional structure of the protein and the way in which it interacts with its ligands is provided not by the genome* but by the laws of Chemistry and Physics.
The genome is, supposedly, the mechanism of evolution. If this mechanism isn't valid, if there's not enough room on the DNA, then evolution collapses. We don't just have a designer, we have a CREATOR.
Are you suggesting that God continually tampers with the biology of every organism on earth in order to make it work?
* - actually it's a bit more complicated than that.

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 36 of 139 (555712)
04-15-2010 4:57 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by jpatterson
04-14-2010 8:25 PM


Re: Prankster God
Did you even read the replies to your opening message?

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 58 of 139 (555949)
04-16-2010 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Dr Adequate
04-16-2010 1:03 PM


Re: Prankster God
Perhaps you could tell us what you're talking about. This would require some sort of link to a reputable source, not just your vague memory of something you think you read about somewhere which turns out to be about bacteria.
Viruses do it a lot, Bacteria occasionally (and Archaea, I believe). It's exceedingly rare in protein coding genes in eukaryotes, but long non-coding RNAs do it quite a lot. (See Mercer, T., Dinger, M., & Mattick, J. (2009). Long non-coding RNAs: insights into functions. Nature Reviews Genetics, 10(3), 155-159. doi:10.1038/nrg2521)
Might be that?

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 82 of 139 (556215)
04-18-2010 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Calibrated Thinker
04-16-2010 7:29 PM


Binding sites
Wait, what?
Your example for overlapping, different biological functions is binding sites for regulatory functions? Do you not see a problem with that? It's like protesting that you use a car key to turn a car engine on and off!

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 89 of 139 (556346)
04-19-2010 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Calibrated Thinker
04-19-2010 9:11 AM


Re: Heh
Using that logic an archeologist that digs up previously unknown and unseen types of artifacts cannot be certain that the artifacts are indeed intelligently made, even though it would be obvious even to a small child that the artifact was made by someone at some time in the past.
Has an archaeologist ever confused a buried tree with such an artefact? Are fossils routinely misclassified as artefacts of ancient civilisation?
The problem with your analogy is that it's completely wrong; it's extremely rare for people to confuse human artefacts and natural objects. If you came across a watch in a forest, you're not going to confuse the human made watch with the trees all around it.

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 94 of 139 (556355)
04-19-2010 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Calibrated Thinker
04-19-2010 10:46 AM


Re: Heh
So you must concede that natural objects do not resemble biological objects - that's why we never confuse them. And if they do not resemble each other why should we accept your argument that the design of one implies the design of the other.
It is the sheer weight of fully functional and operational design processes and structures within living organisms that is screaming out design.
But this is simply wrong; at every level, biological systems do not resemble designed systems, they appear evolved. We find example after example of re-use, of mutation, of botch jobs and variation, we find scales of efficiency and simpler examples dotted through the natural kingdom.

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 97 of 139 (556368)
04-19-2010 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Calibrated Thinker
04-19-2010 11:29 AM


Re: Heh
That's your interpretation from an evolutionary worldview.
I would say they appear designed.
This is the crux of the matter. At this point the interpretation diverges according to the preconceptions that one holds.
When I look at biological systems, I can see design everywhere; when you look at biological systems, you see evolution.
Once again we have to agree to differ.
No we don't. This isn't a question of interpretation - you are wrong. Biological systems are not like designed systems, they are like evolved systems. Multiple, independent lines of scientific evidence support the evolutionary explaination for the diversity of life; no lines of scientific evidence support the notion that life was created.
Interestingly, many years ago my worldview was evolutionary just like you, but at some point I began to question evolutionary theory and then I realised that creation made a lot more sense of the evidence around me than evolution did.
Over the years I have noticed in myself that my whole way of perceiving what I see has greatly changed.
Did any part of this change involve you studying biology or palaeontology?
-----
I realise we have wondered from the topic of this thread, perhaps you'd like to start a new thread on your claim that the support for creation and evolution boils down to interpretation and world view bias.
Edited by Mr Jack, : Off topic

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 117 of 139 (557107)
04-22-2010 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by subbie
04-22-2010 4:06 PM


Re: Evidence & Interpretation
Naive Creationism wasn't believed by thinking men long before Darwin, even before Lyell, and Darwin almost certainly believed Lyell. 6-day Creationism of the kind bandied about today was blown out of the water as soon as people started seriously looking at what's beneath the surface of the Earth - the arguments were between multiple special creations, catastrophyism and uniformitarianism. Darwin might even have taken a Lamarkian view of nature (which, btw, still had God pretty central in it!).

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