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Author Topic:   Not enough room in DNA
Parasomnium
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Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


(1)
Message 11 of 139 (555309)
04-13-2010 4:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jpatterson
04-12-2010 3:39 PM


DNA is a recipe, not a blueprint
A recipe for a cake contains (let's suppose) approximately 650 bytes of information, comprising about a quarter of a page of text. Do you seriously believe that every last detail of the structure of a cake (from the hardness of the crust to the size and position of each and every bubble of carbon dioxide) could fit in a few paragraphs? We do not just have a pastry chef, fortunately we have physics and chemistry as well.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

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Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 13 of 139 (555372)
04-13-2010 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Taq
04-13-2010 9:33 AM


Physics, not chemistry
Actually, that's an example of physics.

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 Message 12 by Taq, posted 04-13-2010 9:33 AM Taq has replied

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Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 105 of 139 (556999)
04-22-2010 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Calibrated Thinker
04-19-2010 11:29 AM


Evidence & Interpretation
Calibrated Thinker writes:
This is the crux of the matter. At this point the interpretation diverges according to the preconceptions that one holds. When I look at biological systems, I can see design everywhere; when you look at biological systems, you see evolution.
...
Never underestimate the effect that your worldview has on how you interpret evidence. This applies to everyone, no exceptions. It's the same evidence for everybody but a totally different interpretation, dependent on whether your viewing things in an evolutionary framework or a creationary framework.
Well, Charles Darwin, for one, started out as a religious person. Moreover, just before he sailed on the Beagle, everybody, including himself, thought he was destined for the cloth. And once on the Beagle, he cited the Bible regularly to the sailors. He was very fond of William Paley's watch argument, and he knew Paley's book almost by heart. So you could say that Darwin was very much viewing things from a creationist viewpoint.
Yet, we know how history played out. During his five year voyage, and in the following years, Darwin took great pains to consider the evidence (your "same evidence for everybody") very carefully and from every angle, eventually to come to his remarkable insight.
In my view, there is a great difference between the creationist viewpoint and the evolutionary (i.e. scientific) viewpoint: the former is inspired by ideology and inherited from generation to generation, despite the evidence, while the latter is derived from, and solely based on, the evidence, after the fact.
In the creationist case, the viewpoint comes first and an interpretation of the evidence is made to fit that viewpoint. In the scientific case, however, there is no preconceived viewpoint. It emerges from an iterative process of theorizing and testing. You go wherever the evidence leads you, even if it leads you out of your comfort zone, as it did in Darwin's case initially. He started with a creationist outlook on life, but upon examining the evidence he gradually - and at first reluctantly - changed his mind.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

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 Message 96 by Calibrated Thinker, posted 04-19-2010 11:29 AM Calibrated Thinker has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 108 of 139 (557020)
04-22-2010 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by slevesque
04-22-2010 4:15 AM


Re: Evidence & Interpretation
slevesque writes:
Never heard that claim about Darwin before, would you mind citing your source ?
I don't have the sources at my disposal right now. What I wrote I dredged up from memory, having read, not long ago, Darwin's Voyage of the Beagle and a biography by Adrian Desmond and James Moore (which, incidentally, I bought in Down House, in Kent).
Perhaps I will cite some passages later. Fortunately, WK has already done some of the work, for which I thank him.
Edited by Parasomnium, : No reason given.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

This message is a reply to:
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Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 118 of 139 (557109)
04-22-2010 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by slevesque
04-22-2010 4:15 AM


Re: Evidence & Interpretation
At first, I couldn't find a passage mentioning that Darwin quoted the Bible to his shipmates, but I was sure I had read it somewhere. Fortunately, I found it on the internet:
Darwin writes:
"Whilst on board the Beagle I was quite orthodox, and I remember being heartily laughed at by several of the officers (though themselves orthodox) for quoting the Bible as an unanswerable authority on some point of morality."
Source: Darwin's autobiography, page 85
That was the fact I was the least sure of, writing from memory, and I'm glad I was right after all. The other facts about young Darwin's religious views that I mentioned in my first post in this thread can be found in various books by and about him, (e.g. the biography I already mentioned, and Darwin's Voyage of the Beagle). There's also a nice two-volume set of books with selected letters, covering two periods: 1822-1859 and 1860-1870.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by slevesque, posted 04-22-2010 4:15 AM slevesque has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 122 of 139 (557114)
04-22-2010 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Dr Adequate
04-22-2010 5:58 PM


Re: Evidence & Interpretation
Dr Adequate writes:
every word that [Darwin] ever wrote is available on line
Nothing beats a well-stocked book case though. If I lean back from my computer, I can just reach the selected letters I mentioned. On-line text is nice - and it helped me just now - but the smell of ink is something I wouldn't trade for anything.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-22-2010 5:58 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-22-2010 6:21 PM Parasomnium has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 123 of 139 (557115)
04-22-2010 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Dr Adequate
04-22-2010 6:12 PM


Re: Evidence & Interpretation
Dr Adequate writes:
I'll bet you ten Canadian dollars that Darwin did read Cuvier's books.
Darwin mentions Cuvier in Voyage and in The Origin. (I just reached back to my book case.)
How much is a Canadian dollar in Euro's?
Edited by Parasomnium, : No reason given.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-22-2010 6:12 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by slevesque, posted 04-22-2010 6:43 PM Parasomnium has not replied
 Message 130 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-22-2010 9:02 PM Parasomnium has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 125 of 139 (557118)
04-22-2010 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Dr Adequate
04-22-2010 6:21 PM


Re: Evidence & Interpretation
... fainted?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-22-2010 6:21 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-22-2010 8:50 PM Parasomnium has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 135 of 139 (557198)
04-23-2010 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Dr Adequate
04-23-2010 3:46 PM


Re: Evidence & Interpretation
Dr Adequate writes:
I do get a bit ... rebarbative ... now and then, don't I?
Okay, what shall we call you? "Darwin's Bulldog" is taken, that was Huxley. "Darwin's Rotweiler" then? Oh, no of course not, that's Dawkins. Erm.. yes, I've got it: from now on you shall be known as "Dr A., Darwin's Dachshund".

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-23-2010 3:46 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
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