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Author Topic:   Not enough room in DNA
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 121 of 139 (557113)
04-22-2010 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by slevesque
04-22-2010 5:23 PM


Re: Evidence & Interpretation
Evidence isn't as black and white as you portray it here. Had Darwin been reading a book by Cuvier, he would have applied a catastrophist interpretation to the geological formations he saw.

But this is not the case. Darwin could have read a book by Cuvier and then wondered whether Cuvier was right or wrong. A scientist reading a book written by another scientist is not like a fundamentalist reading the Bible.

I'll bet you ten Canadian dollars that Darwin did read Cuvier's books.

But we are getting far off-topic so we'll have to stop here (All I wanted originally was some additional information on a minor detail). If anyone wants to continue this then they can start a topic.

Unfortunately, the original poster doesn't seem to want to continue the argument in his original post. So we might as well use this thread to chat about the life of Charles Darwin. If the original poster comes back, then we might get back to the actual topic of this thread.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by slevesque, posted 04-22-2010 5:23 PM slevesque has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Parasomnium, posted 04-22-2010 6:19 PM Dr Adequate has responded
 Message 127 by slevesque, posted 04-22-2010 6:59 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Parasomnium
Member (Idle past 869 days)
Posts: 2191
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 122 of 139 (557114)
04-22-2010 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Dr Adequate
04-22-2010 5:58 PM


Re: Evidence & Interpretation
Dr Adequate writes:

every word that [Darwin] ever wrote is available on line

Nothing beats a well-stocked book case though. If I lean back from my computer, I can just reach the selected letters I mentioned. On-line text is nice - and it helped me just now - but the smell of ink is something I wouldn't trade for anything.


"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-22-2010 5:58 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-22-2010 6:21 PM Parasomnium has responded

  
Parasomnium
Member (Idle past 869 days)
Posts: 2191
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 123 of 139 (557115)
04-22-2010 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Dr Adequate
04-22-2010 6:12 PM


Re: Evidence & Interpretation
Dr Adequate writes:

I'll bet you ten Canadian dollars that Darwin did read Cuvier's books.

Darwin mentions Cuvier in Voyage and in The Origin. (I just reached back to my book case.)

How much is a Canadian dollar in Euro's?

Edited by Parasomnium, : No reason given.


"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-22-2010 6:12 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by slevesque, posted 04-22-2010 6:43 PM Parasomnium has not yet responded
 Message 130 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-22-2010 9:02 PM Parasomnium has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 124 of 139 (557117)
04-22-2010 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Parasomnium
04-22-2010 6:13 PM


Re: Evidence & Interpretation
Nothing beats a well-stocked book case though. If I lean back from my computer, I can just reach the selected letters I mentioned. On-line text is nice - and it helped me just now - but the smell of ink is something I wouldn't trade for anything.

Well, you like the smell of ink, but I like the words "completely free, at the push of a button"

Furthermore, on paper in ink you do not have every word that Darwin ever wrote about anything. Whereas I do --- in electronic form.

I do like real books in ink on paper, but let us not disparage the Internet.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Parasomnium, posted 04-22-2010 6:13 PM Parasomnium has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Parasomnium, posted 04-22-2010 6:25 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Parasomnium
Member (Idle past 869 days)
Posts: 2191
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 125 of 139 (557118)
04-22-2010 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Dr Adequate
04-22-2010 6:21 PM


Re: Evidence & Interpretation
... fainted?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-22-2010 6:21 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-22-2010 8:50 PM Parasomnium has not yet responded

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 2813 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 126 of 139 (557120)
04-22-2010 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Parasomnium
04-22-2010 6:19 PM


Re: Evidence & Interpretation
Canadian dollar is on par with the american dollar these days I think. Dunno what that makes in euro however
This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Parasomnium, posted 04-22-2010 6:19 PM Parasomnium has not yet responded

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 2813 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 127 of 139 (557122)
04-22-2010 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Dr Adequate
04-22-2010 6:12 PM


Re: Evidence & Interpretation
And of course, applying to Lyell's strict uniformitarianism made him make some mistakes. All I was saying is that Subbie overexpressed the ''compelling'' evidence that ''forced'' unto him the idea of uniformitarianism.

The classic example being his hypothesis on what formed the Santa Cruz river. Through uniformitarianism, he thought the it was the product of the erosion of the tides by an ancient sea. When today we know it was formed by meltwater flooding (similar to the channeled scablands), which is much closer to a Cuvier catastrophist interpretation.

All I want to say is that subbie put way to much weight on the 'evidence' in Darwin's geological interpretations. Uniformitarianism is a framework first and foremost, in which you interpret the evidence, not a strict logical deduction if the evidence. Just as is catastrophism.

In fact, uniformitarianism was the only accepted framework for a long time in geology, as per this quote from Derek Ager (british geologist and anti-creationist):

quote:
Just as politicians rewrite human history, so geologists rewrite earth history. For a century and a half the geological world has been dominated, one might even say brain-washed, by the gradualistic uniformitarianism of Charles Lyell. Any suggestion of “catastrophic” events has been rejected as old-fashioned, unscientific and even laughable.

Ager, D., The New Catastrophism: the importance of the rare event in geological history, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, p. xi, 1993

Darwin was in this 'uniformitarian wave' just as much as anybody else. He wrote a critique of Agassiz's ice age theory for example, which wasn't uniformitarian but turned out to be true.

AbE. But I still do think that if someone wants to continue this discussion, to open another thread. It will be much easier to find back in the future. Better keep things straight. So I won't answer back anything on here anymore

Edited by slevesque, : No reason given.

Edited by slevesque, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-22-2010 6:12 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-22-2010 8:56 PM slevesque has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 128 of 139 (557130)
04-22-2010 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Parasomnium
04-22-2010 6:25 PM


Re: Evidence & Interpretation
... fainted?

No, Percy has written the software wrong. You make one little mistake in formatting your post, and the whole thing just vanishes.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Parasomnium, posted 04-22-2010 6:25 PM Parasomnium has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 129 of 139 (557131)
04-22-2010 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by slevesque
04-22-2010 6:59 PM


Re: Evidence & Interpretation
Your post is silly and confused, but you finish it off by saying that you won't even discuss the subject. So where do we go from here? You're wrong, but you refuse to put up any argument that you're right.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by slevesque, posted 04-22-2010 6:59 PM slevesque has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by slevesque, posted 04-22-2010 9:09 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 130 of 139 (557132)
04-22-2010 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Parasomnium
04-22-2010 6:19 PM


Re: Evidence & Interpretation
Darwin mentions Cuvier in Voyage and in The Origin. (I just reached back to my book case.)

Then I would have so won if only slevesque could have been persuaded to take my bet.

My point stands --- Darwin did read Cuvier.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Parasomnium, posted 04-22-2010 6:19 PM Parasomnium has not yet responded

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 2813 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 131 of 139 (557133)
04-22-2010 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Dr Adequate
04-22-2010 8:56 PM


Re: Evidence & Interpretation
Start a new thread then ....

The OP of this thread is not about Darwin's influences, it's about if DNA can account for the whole formation of a biological system such as a human body.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-22-2010 8:56 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-22-2010 9:28 PM slevesque has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 132 of 139 (557135)
04-22-2010 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by slevesque
04-22-2010 9:09 PM


Re: Evidence & Interpretation
Start a new thread then ....

Why? I'm right.

The OP of this thread is not about Darwin's influences, it's about if DNA can account for the whole formation of a biological system such as a human body.

Quite so. But we seem to have wandered a little from the topic.

I think it pusillanimous of you to now complain that our discussion is off-topic at the point when you realize that you're getting your ass kicked. You didn't complain that you yourself were off-topic when you raised the subject --- but now it is off-topic for me to answer you.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by slevesque, posted 04-22-2010 9:09 PM slevesque has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by slevesque, posted 04-23-2010 3:50 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 2813 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 133 of 139 (557147)
04-23-2010 3:50 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Dr Adequate
04-22-2010 9:28 PM


Re: Evidence & Interpretation
Why? I'm right.

Of course you are, I never wanted to force you to do anything.

Quite so. But we seem to have wandered a little from the topic.

I think it pusillanimous of you to now complain that our discussion is off-topic at the point when you realize that you're getting your ass kicked. You didn't complain that you yourself were off-topic when you raised the subject --- but now it is off-topic for me to answer you.

The moment I asked for some additional info about what Parasomnium I was going a bit off-topic, but I was imagining having a single response linking to where he had read this. It was an informative discussion at the beginning, but as soon as I felt this could turn out to become an argumentative discussion, I immediatly signaled that we should stop the discussion and continue on a new thread if someone wanted to continue it (see post #116).

You responded to my post, +added that since the OPer wasn't here, we could just continue on chatting about Darwin's life here. But of course we both know this isn't an 'out-clause' to forum guideline no2 (''Please stay on topic for a thread. Open a new thread for new topics.'')

I responded to your post, and once again reiterated that a new thread was to be made in order to continue the discussion if there was interest in doing so. In other words, my past two successive posts (disregarding no126 about canadian vs euro dollar) clearly stated that we were off-topic, the first one being clearly before any imaginary ass-kicking took place.

Since I knew this second mention of it wouldn't do any more impact then the first one, I decided to edit my message as to say that I wouldn't answer anymore on this thread. This was simply in order to put more weight to my warning.

I'm sorry you interpreted all this the way you did, although I find it unsurprising that you are giving me worst intentions than what was actually the case.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-22-2010 9:28 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-23-2010 3:46 PM slevesque has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 134 of 139 (557196)
04-23-2010 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by slevesque
04-23-2010 3:50 AM


Re: Evidence & Interpretation
I'm sorry you interpreted all this the way you did, although I find it unsurprising that you are giving me worst intentions than what was actually the case.

I do get a bit ... rebarbative ... now and then, don't I? I shouldn't have attacked you personally, I know that you're a good guy.

I'm still right.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by slevesque, posted 04-23-2010 3:50 AM slevesque has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Parasomnium, posted 04-23-2010 3:59 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Parasomnium
Member (Idle past 869 days)
Posts: 2191
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 135 of 139 (557198)
04-23-2010 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Dr Adequate
04-23-2010 3:46 PM


Re: Evidence & Interpretation
Dr Adequate writes:

I do get a bit ... rebarbative ... now and then, don't I?

Okay, what shall we call you? "Darwin's Bulldog" is taken, that was Huxley. "Darwin's Rotweiler" then? Oh, no of course not, that's Dawkins. Erm.. yes, I've got it: from now on you shall be known as "Dr A., Darwin's Dachshund".


"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-23-2010 3:46 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by hawkes nightmare, posted 04-23-2010 11:52 PM Parasomnium has not yet responded

  
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