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Author Topic:   The Future of Artificial Intelligence: Can machines become sentient (self-aware)
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 6 of 51 (555739)
04-15-2010 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by DevilsAdvocate
04-14-2010 10:22 PM


DevilsAdvocate writes:
..., do you think that machines well become self-aware (sentient) and if so how and when?
It won't happen in my lifetime, or in yours.
I think it would be a fair assessment of the current state of the art, to say that the experts haven't a clue how to do this.
So we now have a computer as top chess player. Yet, as almost anybody admits, the way it plays chess is not anything like the way that people play chess.
Back in 1950, when Turing wrote his famous article "Computing Machinery and Intelligence" it was thought that a real thinking computer was just around the corner. All we needed were computer a little faster and with a little more memory than were available.
Today people are saying that all we need are computers that are a little faster and with a little more memory.
In 100 years time, people will be saying that all we need are computers that are a little faster and with a little more memory. Or maybe it will eventually dawn on people, that the problem is not a lack of computing power.
Sorry to be a naysayer. I am just giving my honest assessment of the evidence of progress. And, honestly, we have not made any progress. The things that have been puzzles throughout 2,000 years of philosophy of mind are still puzzles today. All the computer has done, is provide us with a new metaphor in which to express those ancient puzzles.

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 Message 1 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 04-14-2010 10:22 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 04-15-2010 8:42 AM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 16 of 51 (555797)
04-15-2010 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by DevilsAdvocate
04-15-2010 8:42 AM


DevilsAdvocate writes:
Some humans also said we would never fly, go into outer space, etc, etc. But we have exceeded even our wildest expectations.
We still cannot fly. We had to change the meaning of "fly" to something that we can do, before we were able to fly. In the old sense, flying the way birds do it - we cannot do that.
Can we change the meaning of "sentience" to something that computers can do? Presumably we can, if we find that useful.
Let me respond in the form of a few questions:
1: Could we, in principle, build an artificially sentient system?
My answer - yes, sure. I don't see anything magical going on.
2: Is that principle computation?
My answer - no. I might be part of a small minority there, though I sometimes suspect that the majority of mathematicians and computer scientists are actually very skeptical of AI but choose not to engage in the public debates.
3: Is that principle intentionality (the issue that John Searle attempted to raise in his "Chinese Room" argument).
My answer - no, though that might at least vaguely point in the right direction. With the last two answers, I am probably a minority of one.
4: Is it even worth doing?
My answer - no. If it were easy to do, it would be worth doing for what we would learn in the attempt. However, it is going to turn out to be very hard, perhaps prohibitively hard. So there is no real payoff for building an artificially sentient being. Beside, the old fashioned way is more fun.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Never say never.
I have at least given a bit more detail of my thinking above.
AI, as currently done, is mostly an attempt to automate epistemology (the "theory of knowledge" from philosophy).
Epistemology is mostly nonsense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 04-15-2010 8:42 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 04-15-2010 12:30 PM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 23 of 51 (555813)
04-15-2010 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by DevilsAdvocate
04-15-2010 12:30 PM


DevilsAdvocate writes:
However, let's say we did create a human-like sentient machine 50 years down the road. How do you think this would play into our idea about religion and morality?
There would be a lot of anger from the religious right, perhaps even an attempt to assassinate the scientists involved. It would call into question their idea of a spiritual soul.
Beyond that, it gets pretty hard to guess what would result.

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 Message 21 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 04-15-2010 12:30 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 28 of 51 (555838)
04-15-2010 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by DevilsAdvocate
04-15-2010 12:39 PM


Re: What causes sentience?
DevilsAdvocate writes:I am curious to wonder if our level sentience is a natural byproduct of evolution
Yes, it is. That's just my opinion, of course. It is actually a controversial issue. Some people believe it is an epiphenomenom (a mere side effect of no practical use).
DevilsAdvocate writes:
... and how common it is.
That's a lot harder to say. We can't even compare two humans, so how could we compare a human and a whale?
DevilsAdvocate writes:
However, the question arises, if other species i.e. dolphins, elephants, etc were able to evolve without the impedement of human beings, would it be natural for them to evolve a more sentient level of cognition?
IMO, sentience is not an end in itself. Rather, it is part of the way we function. What is distinct about humans, say compared to elephants, is the extent to which we form large interactive social groups. A substantial part of our cognitive abilities are a component of that social adaptation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 04-15-2010 12:39 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-15-2010 3:51 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied
 Message 30 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 04-15-2010 4:33 PM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 32 of 51 (555859)
04-15-2010 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by DevilsAdvocate
04-15-2010 4:33 PM


Re: What causes sentience?
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Aka 'culture' though some higher intelligent animals have some rudimentary forms of this. Basically accumulated extrasomatic knowledge passed down from generation to generation.
Yes, quite right. A lot of what we see as human progress is the result of people working together cooperatively to achieve what could not be done individually. And that is what culture does for us.

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