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Author Topic:   Easy proof for Inteligent Design
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3923 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 4 of 213 (555697)
04-15-2010 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by MrQ
04-13-2010 6:15 PM


False
4- Law of physics are based on mathematics and mathematics is based on logic and 'necessary truths'. In other words, laws of physics can't exists unless 'logic' exist before it.
Nope, sounds like simple cognitive error. Laws of physics aren't derived from mathematics, they are observed in nature. The mathematics are merely a convention we use to communicate about them.
It's rather like saying there are no oranges without migrant workers, so therefore there must have been an Original Migrant Worker involved in tree creation. Putting the cart before the horse.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by MrQ, posted 04-13-2010 6:15 PM MrQ has not replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3923 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 122 of 213 (556300)
04-18-2010 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by MrQ
04-17-2010 3:26 PM


cosmogony
An non-designed universe to me would be a random mix of energy and mass. In this universe, there should not be any sense of order. So no laws and no rules.
It seems like there might be some confusion afoot as to what "order" actually is. Hopefully I can aggravate that a bit.
To begin with, because we really do not in fact have to start somewhere, you have nothing. No, less than that, not a thing at all. That vast empty expanse you are trying to imagine is dead wrong, there's no vastness, no emptiness, no expansion. If you can think of it, you don't have it, and even if you can't think of it, you still don't have it. Nothing Nil Nada Nicht Nein None.
We will call this Void, for poetical reasons. Now somehow, expanding into or out of this nothing, we have, something. Oh, not just something, not even just everything, it's arbitrary and infinite and essentially the exact opposite of the nothing you were imagining to start with. This we can call Chaos.
Now Void, in conjunction with Chaos, is expressed as entropy. That is, it is eating away at the substance of everything, taking its arbitrariness and distinct being and reducing them down closer and closer to nothing. In this conjunction it is just as correct to speak of Chaos as energy, and entropy as it's behavior over time in conjunction with Void.
The result of this interaction is this, reality, we tend to try to live in. It's immeasurable but basically uniform over all, it definitely exists instead of being abstract like its parents, it's arbitrary locally but predictable in large chunks, it is plural rather than singular, and capable of being abstracted in such a way as to draw attention to its energy or to its entropy. In short, it is what we could call Order. Or Disorder, they are the same thing, a ratio between Chaos and Void we happen to find more or less comfortable.
In this way we see that Order is not the opposite of Chaos at all, that Order without Chaos would be entirely null and Void. That's how it is. To summarize:
0/x = 0 (nothing)
x/0 = n (infinity)
0/n = x (this (and/or that))
* credit for this trick to Hesiod, though the live community has juiced it up over the years. You guys know who you are.
Edited by Iblis, : kosmos
Edited by Iblis, :

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by MrQ, posted 04-17-2010 3:26 PM MrQ has replied

Replies to this message:
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