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Author Topic:   Can anything exist for an infinite time or outside of time?
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3664 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 12 of 158 (556087)
04-17-2010 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by slevesque
04-16-2010 4:28 PM


Re: Infinite time.
I would add however that anything that has an end must have a beginning, because if it is to end, then if it had an infinite past then it would have ended an infinite time ago.
No, not true. (related to Son Goku's answer) There is no universal parameter of time in any of our current theories of physics. In other words, there is no great clock in the sky ticking away moments of time, such that our own individual "now" is carried along by this clock's own time.
The only "passage of time" that occurs in physics is that of our own awareness, and there is actually nothing to align all of these individual clocks other than convention (this takes us into some very interesting areas on the question of awareness and physics.)
So to sum up - as far as we know, an awareness simply sees passage of time in the region of the Universe where that awareness is located. The Universe could be temporally infinite, semi-infinite (in either direction) or finite, and this would make no difference to how an awareness perceives time.

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3664 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 13 of 158 (556089)
04-17-2010 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
04-15-2010 11:48 AM


Hi Chimp, please see my previous post for my reply.

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3664 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 24 of 158 (556205)
04-18-2010 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by slevesque
04-17-2010 3:22 PM


Re: Infinite time.
Our sun is burning down it's fuel, and we know that one day, it will 'die'. Therefore, we know that the sun cannot have an infinite past, or it would already had burned all up.
The "Sun", in one form or another, has been around since the beginning of the Universe. It is only in the past 4.5 billion years that it has had the form of a hydrogen burning ball of gas. All we can extrapolate is that prior to 4.5 billion years, the Sun had a different form. We cannot determine a beginning.
In the same way the universe is somewhat kind of doomed when it's entropy will be at it's maximum. Does this not also tell us that it must have had a beginning ?
And in the same way, no.

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3664 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 32 of 158 (556445)
04-19-2010 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by slevesque
04-19-2010 6:42 PM


Re: Infinite time.
Now, you reply to me by equivocating the word 'sun'
No, I was merely confused over the angle you were taking. I had already addressed the situation in the most general terms, and so I took a physical approach this time.
In any case...
Everything that has an end has a beginning
Perhaps you can begin by defending this extremely unobvious proposition.

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3664 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 33 of 158 (556447)
04-19-2010 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by slevesque
04-19-2010 10:56 PM


Re: Infinite time.
This form Y lasts for a finite amount of time
Picking an object that by your definiton has finite duration and then declaring that it cannot extend infinitely into the past is surely an exercise in stating the bleedin' obvious? I really don't know what you are attempting to show here...

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3664 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 41 of 158 (556763)
04-21-2010 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by slevesque
04-20-2010 5:08 PM


Re: split infinities
Therefore, my proof does not cover the example Son-Goku gave. A particle that had it's 'life' end by falling in a black hole could have continued on infinitely in the future. It was just a matter of (bad) luck that it fell down there. Therefore it could also have an infinite past.
Yes, it does cover SG's example, and thus is contradicted by SG's example . Although SG colloquially spoke of a particle, what he is actually thinking of is the geodesic along which such a particle will be defined. The geodesic extends infinitely to the past (to i- on a Penrose Diagram of the black hole in question) but only finitely to the future (to the future singularity, T=0, if we are talking a Schwarschild black hole.) This geodesic is fixed - there is no choice involved.

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3664 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 43 of 158 (556773)
04-21-2010 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by slevesque
04-21-2010 12:45 AM


Re: split infinities
Ok. Then where is the error in my attempted proof ?
Well, it's a bit of a no-where proof to be honest
You state that X(t) is finite, then force upon it a condition which will necessarily make X(t) infinite should X(t) be defined for all t, then use this to state that X(t) cannot be defined for all t because otherwise it would not be finite - this is good politics but lousy logic

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3664 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 78 of 158 (558923)
05-05-2010 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by DPowell
05-05-2010 1:54 PM


Re: First Cause
"In the beginning __________________ ..."
Now tell me what happened before that or caused it.
How could an actual beginning have a "before" or a "cause"? Either one simply relegates this "beginning" to a "start if a new phase."

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3664 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 88 of 158 (558996)
05-06-2010 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by DPowell
05-06-2010 1:28 AM


Re: First Cause
The explanation of "how" God "could" have done Creation really doesn't seem that difficult to me.
Of course not. Explaining the made-up functionality of a made-up concept is not exactly going to tax anyone - ask my six year old about all his new Ben-10 characters.

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3664 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 89 of 158 (559000)
05-06-2010 4:02 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by DPowell
05-06-2010 12:55 AM


Re: First Cause
You made my point for me.
In the end, you are left to say that either God is "God" or that the Universe itself is "God."
Are you defining "God" as simply that that needs no cause? I'm not sure you will find many theologians, nevermind Christians, to agree with you...
Part of the nature of God-ness is freedom from causality, I would think.
Maybe you would think, but that hardly leads to your above claim, does it?
For me, it is a reach to say "there is stuff" simply because...well...there is stuff.
And how many physicists working in this area give this as an explanation?

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3664 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


(1)
Message 104 of 158 (559094)
05-06-2010 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by DPowell
05-06-2010 2:16 PM


Re: First Cause
But to apply this freedom to the Universe is to free the Universe itself from God, so in a sense it commandeers his title as "God."
cart before the horse methinks. I know of the Universe. What is this "God" that you mention?
My understanding is that the "why" in such a case is not the domain of a physicist, no matter how brilliant, but rather cosmologists, philosophers, and theologians. Physics is math...math does not do well with "why."
Then quite obviously your understanding is rather limited. I am a physicist, mathematician, and cosmologist - and while I was an evangelical Christian, considered myself quite the theologian. And actually, of all these, when it comes to the nature of reality, mathematics provides by far the most "why".

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3664 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


(1)
Message 105 of 158 (559097)
05-06-2010 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by DPowell
05-06-2010 2:19 PM


Re: First Cause
So, you can believe it is "made-up" if you wish, but please do not insult me for meeting the explanatory demands of people from your own side.
you provided no explanation. You merely stated that it was not difficult to know how some god could have created the Universe, as if you have some insight into the metaphysical machinations of your own particular deity. And we all laughed...

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3664 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 124 of 158 (567666)
07-02-2010 6:02 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Carel
07-02-2010 5:01 AM


I am still amazed about the almost exact definition of the variables. A little bit more of this and there should have been no planets at all, a little less of that and no stars would have formed.
True, there are many many slight tweaks that could change the Universe dramatically (and other tweaks that surpisingly don't change it so much.)
We see exactly the same situation with higher-level parameters - just imagine all the parameters that go into making Earth suitable for complex multicellular life for a sufficiently long period of time for something like us to arise. Tweak anything too much and you've got Mars or Venus.
So, given what we know of the Universe, what is the obvious explanation for how we have the correct range of parameters on Earth?
And could this be a suitable explanation for the next level down, in terms of the parameters that govern having a Universe with stars and planets?

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