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Author Topic:   What exactly is ID?
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 181 of 1273 (539902)
12-20-2009 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by traderdrew
12-20-2009 10:36 AM


Re: Aquaporins
Two points of fact:
1. Membranes are made of lipids, not proteins; these do not have the same constituents as proteins unless you mean the individual atoms of which they are composed.
2. Membranes are all water permeable. Aquaporins provide additional control of water flow, but even without them water can cross membranes.

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 202 of 1273 (539997)
12-21-2009 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Smooth Operator
12-21-2009 10:43 AM


Please explain E. coli
Hi Smooth Operator,
Well, I'm completely convinced by your theoretical argument. Now please explain to me why E. coli - which has a generation time measured in days (sometimes even minutes), and does not reproduce sexually - is not extinct due to this disasterous genetic fate you've so neatly outlined?
Edited by Mr Jack, : No reason given.

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 Message 198 by Smooth Operator, posted 12-21-2009 10:43 AM Smooth Operator has replied

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 231 of 1273 (540093)
12-22-2009 5:01 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by Smooth Operator
12-21-2009 3:04 PM


Re: Please explain E. coli
Because it takes a lot of time for that to happen. You don't expect them to be dead in 7 generations like in my picture do you?
How many generations do you think it needs? E.coli can divide every 20 minutes under ideal conditions, how many twenty minutes are there in the last six thousand years? Even if we drop it to one generation a day to account for variations in generational rates, that's over two million generations.
Why hasn't genetic entropy shown its head in E. coli?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Coyote, posted 12-22-2009 5:57 AM Dr Jack has replied
 Message 240 by Smooth Operator, posted 12-22-2009 9:54 AM Dr Jack has replied

Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 234 of 1273 (540101)
12-22-2009 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by Coyote
12-22-2009 5:57 AM


Re: Please explain E. coli
But it isn't 6,000 years--it is more like 3.5 billion years. And it isn't just E. coli--it is all of life.
Indeed, but I was pointing out that even the Creationists' silly date for the creation of the earth is not free from their problem.

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 241 of 1273 (540118)
12-22-2009 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by Smooth Operator
12-22-2009 9:54 AM


Re: Please explain E. coli
I don't know how much it needs. But it's a logical conclusion.
Logic can show all sorts of things if your assumptions are wrong; if your conclusion are demonstrable wrong then it follows your logic is flawed or your assumptions were wrong. Experiment always trumps theory.
It has. It affects all life. But like I said, a long time is needed for the actual meltdown to occure.
Then why don't we see any effect of it?
Every E. coli bacterium alive today should have accumulated a minimum (using a conservative estimate of the number of generations) of over 7000 deleterious mutations in the last 6000 years. That's more mutations than they have genes.

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 695 of 1273 (543144)
01-15-2010 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by Smooth Operator
12-23-2009 10:03 AM


Re: Please explain E. coli
Yes, we do. We see them in ALL species.
Cite an example then, please
No. We do not know how much mutations would they have accumulated. To predict real numbers is not possible, simply because we do not know what was the initial population size.
Why would we need to know the initial population size? I'm talking about in a single gene line - as in those descended from a single individual.

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 Message 288 by Smooth Operator, posted 12-23-2009 10:03 AM Smooth Operator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 701 by Smooth Operator, posted 01-18-2010 2:31 PM Dr Jack has replied

Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 706 of 1273 (543486)
01-18-2010 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 701 by Smooth Operator
01-18-2010 2:31 PM


Re: Please explain E. coli
This article talks about accumulation of mutations in RNA chains.
Accumulation of Deleterious Mutations in Small Abiotic Populations of RNA - PMC...
This one compare the accumulation of slightly deleterious mutations between small and large mammals.
Just a moment...
Interesting articles, thank you. So given that you are presenting these articles as reliable sources, why should we not accept their further information on the differential effects of population size on deleterious mutation accumulation?
(Although, I note, neither of those articles supports your assertion about build up of genetic entropy)
Becasue the size of the population is one of the factors that determines how much mutations will accumulate. If you do not know the initial size, than you also do not know how much mutations will accumulate.
We can still know how many will accumulate in a single genetic line (because E. coli is asexual), that number is at least 7000 - more than one mutation per gene. Why aren't they suffering huge consequences from this problem?
Edited by Mr Jack, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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