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Author Topic:   What exactly is ID?
Son
Member (Idle past 3948 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 1 of 1273 (511375)
06-09-2009 2:38 PM


(It's the first time i propose a subject so please correct me if I do something wrong)
I would like to know what is really ID.
By that, I mean for ID:
-what is the age of the earth?
-what did the designer create? (species? genus? familiy?)
-when did he create life?
-I would also like to know if possible, what are the observations that lead to your answers.
Of course feel free to give more detail if you have them.
I ask because most IDers say ID is a theory so it would be nice to know what we are talking about before arguing about the evidence.
All talks about evidence or evolution (like ID says this because evo can't explain it) SHOULD BE TAKEN TO ANOTHER thread.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by PaulK, posted 06-09-2009 3:58 PM Son has replied
 Message 15 by Stile, posted 06-10-2009 12:54 PM Son has not replied
 Message 16 by Taz, posted 06-10-2009 1:55 PM Son has replied
 Message 19 by LucyTheApe, posted 07-14-2009 2:15 PM Son has replied
 Message 24 by traderdrew, posted 07-17-2009 11:36 AM Son has replied
 Message 501 by Brad H, posted 01-06-2010 6:22 AM Son has not replied
 Message 599 by Sky-Writing, posted 01-10-2010 8:07 AM Son has not replied
 Message 751 by websnarf, posted 01-21-2010 6:44 PM Son has not replied
 Message 1249 by Chuck77, posted 06-26-2011 5:55 AM Son has replied
 Message 1253 by IamJoseph, posted 07-30-2011 11:46 PM Son has not replied

Son
Member (Idle past 3948 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 8 of 1273 (511465)
06-09-2009 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Fallen
06-09-2009 6:06 PM


So, to you ID is just an idea? Not a theory? If it was a competing theory to evolution, shouldn't it answer the questions evolution does? At least part of them?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Nuggin, posted 06-09-2009 9:47 PM Son has replied

Son
Member (Idle past 3948 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 9 of 1273 (511466)
06-09-2009 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by PaulK
06-09-2009 3:58 PM


Yeah, I'm trying to work out the different positions of ID in this thread in order to make debates clearer in other threads without going off topic in those threads.

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Son
Member (Idle past 3948 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 11 of 1273 (511479)
06-10-2009 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Nuggin
06-09-2009 9:47 PM


While it is what I think too, this thread is to give them a chance to prove me wrong.

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Son
Member (Idle past 3948 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 14 of 1273 (511522)
06-10-2009 5:22 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Fallen
06-09-2009 6:47 PM


In short, for you ID only says that there is an intelligent designer and biological life is only a mean to prove it, right? If that's the case, I don't see the point of an ID/Evolution debate since it seems the two don't even talk about the same thing. (off topic: evolution says nothing about the presence or absence of a designer, it just doesn't use it)

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Son
Member (Idle past 3948 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 17 of 1273 (511587)
06-10-2009 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Taz
06-10-2009 1:55 PM


Taz writes:
what did the designer create? (species? genus? familiy?)
Everything.
What I meant by that is: did he create species then they "micro evolved"? Or was it genus? If I'm not mistaken, they believe micro-evolution to be possible.
What I wanted was more like a rough "history of life" from an ID perspective, a bit like evolution does (afterall, they are competing theories,right?).
I intended to ask for more details about what ID says as the thread progressed but the only answer I got so far from an IDer was: ID is just an idea that doesn't really say anything apart from the fact that a designer exists.
Edited by Son, : No reason given.

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Son
Member (Idle past 3948 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 20 of 1273 (514978)
07-14-2009 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by LucyTheApe
07-14-2009 2:15 PM


That sounds like Creationism. Are you sure you are talking about ID? Or do you think the two are in fact the same? And when I asked what The designer created, I meant, did he create all species as they are now or did he create genus then those evolved from there? (or something like that)

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Son
Member (Idle past 3948 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 23 of 1273 (515023)
07-14-2009 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by bluescat48
07-14-2009 5:53 PM


This thread is intended to be mainly descriptive, it's not really intended for debate. Discussion of evidence should be taken to another thread. I did that so that I could actually make it simple to have an answer about what is I.D. If we begin to discuss evidence without actually determining clearly what is I.D. first, I fear it will only muddle the issue.

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Son
Member (Idle past 3948 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 26 of 1273 (515370)
07-17-2009 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by traderdrew
07-17-2009 11:36 AM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
While it is intersting, I would like the simple questions I asked in the OP to be answered. In short, I would like to have some kind of "rough history of life" from an ID perspective.(In fact you just answered the question : "What led you to believe ID to be true?")
I will ask for more details on this after those 1st questions are answered. As for what led you to ID, I think you answered the question fully enough for the purpose of this thread.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by traderdrew, posted 07-18-2009 10:50 AM Son has replied
 Message 38 by traderdrew, posted 07-18-2009 12:47 PM Son has replied

Son
Member (Idle past 3948 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 27 of 1273 (515373)
07-17-2009 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Perdition
07-17-2009 1:44 PM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
I know you disagree stronly with Tradervew but this thread is intended to be mainly descriptive, debates should be taken to more appropriate threads (Like I said in the OP). I made this thread this way in order to have a straightforward answer about what is ID in as few posts as possible. Keep in mind that the post you answered to only responded to one of the questions I asked and I considered this question secondary. It shouldn't start long debates here or this thread will go way off its intended purpose.

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Son
Member (Idle past 3948 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 34 of 1273 (515500)
07-18-2009 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by traderdrew
07-18-2009 10:50 AM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
First, I would like to point out that the messages you replied to in your two following messages were a bit off topic themselves and I would like those discussions taken in other threads in order to keep this one focused.
I would like to know if for you, I.D. is some form of theistic evolutionism or something else. If it's something else, please spell out clearly what is the history of life from an I.D. perspective. I ask because I found the issues about I.D. to be quite blurred. As an example, you can see that in an earlier message, LucyTheApe disagreed with you on the issue of the age of the Earth while supposedly on the same side as you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by traderdrew, posted 07-18-2009 10:50 AM traderdrew has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by traderdrew, posted 07-18-2009 12:04 PM Son has replied

Son
Member (Idle past 3948 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 36 of 1273 (515505)
07-18-2009 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by traderdrew
07-18-2009 12:04 PM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
I was asking about your own opinion, I'm well aware that different Iders have different opinions although the different positions in I.D. don't seem to be very clear. As you know, I.D. is presented as a scientific alternative to Evolution that's why it gave me the impression that I.D. had a different history of life from Evo. I may be wrong and only the mechanisms between the two differs. If that is so, you still need to spell those out clearly.
Also, I would also like to know where different IDers all agree to give some kind central theory of ID.
From what you told me so far, it seems to me that your version of ID is evolution + Intelligent Designer(theistic evolutionism). Meaning you don't disagree with what Evo says, just that they missed at least one mechanism(ID), is that right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by traderdrew, posted 07-18-2009 12:04 PM traderdrew has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by traderdrew, posted 07-18-2009 12:43 PM Son has replied

Son
Member (Idle past 3948 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 39 of 1273 (515510)
07-18-2009 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by traderdrew
07-18-2009 12:47 PM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
As I have already pointed out, those discussions should be taken to another thread to keep this one on topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by traderdrew, posted 07-18-2009 12:47 PM traderdrew has not replied

Son
Member (Idle past 3948 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 40 of 1273 (515511)
07-18-2009 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by traderdrew
07-18-2009 12:43 PM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
Do you mean that for you, organisms micro evolve by themselves but that the intelligent designer intervene for macro evolution? By the way, how does the intelligent designer intervene? For example, where is he? How does he manipulate populations from where he is? Etc...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by traderdrew, posted 07-18-2009 12:43 PM traderdrew has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by traderdrew, posted 07-20-2009 2:01 PM Son has replied

Son
Member (Idle past 3948 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


(1)
Message 46 of 1273 (515699)
07-20-2009 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by traderdrew
07-20-2009 3:32 PM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
Discussion about information should be taken to a thread specifically to it I think since it seems such a source of great confusion and debate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by traderdrew, posted 07-20-2009 3:32 PM traderdrew has replied

Replies to this message:
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