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Author Topic:   What exactly is ID?
traderdrew
Member (Idle past 5267 days)
Posts: 379
From: Palm Beach, Florida
Joined: 04-27-2009


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Message 24 of 1273 (515343)
07-17-2009 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Son
06-09-2009 2:38 PM


What is Intelligent Design?
If you wish to understand Intelligent Design, I would suggest starting with getting rid of any sterotypes you have of what a creationist is because if we were creationists, then we should call ourselves that. I think this sentence will elict laughs from my Darwinist friends on this forum.
You see creationists take issues and work from science and they attempt to shoehorn those issues into a biblical framework. Proponents of ID should not attempt to do this. (At least not all of them do this.) They should look at the natural world from various scientific fields and form hypotheses from them.
From wikipedia:
Intelligent design is the assertion that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection."[1][2]
I completely agree with the first part of this definition but what comes after the comma, I do not completely agree with. I think they might be confusing 'natural selection' with 'common descent'. From my point of view, natural selection can be described as a part of chaos. Natural selection is an undirected process but order can be hidden within chaos. Chaos theory is an emerging branch of science. I believe in natural selection and I also believe in common descent as formed by a process I call assemblism.
So where do proponents of ID draw their beliefs from? Very briefly:
1. Molecular machinery inside of the cell. An example would be irreducibly complex systems.
2. Patterns of appearance of organisms in the fossil record.
3. The fine-tuned physics of the universe. Robin Collins is an expert in this.
4. The fine-tuning of our terrestrial environment and our solar system along with the specific "galactic habitable zone" in our galaxy which is also the right type of galaxy that supports life. If any of you doubt me on this, read the book "Rare Earth" which is divorced from any sort of theological framework. The science we have now is different from the era of Carl Sagan.
5. The complex specified information within DNA providing specific functions that helps build organisms. Abiogenesis models typically do not attempt to explain the origin of this information. They also don't account for other crucial details.
I will be investigating a new area next week I could list as a possible #6. I have a strong lead came from a one on one interview I had personally with a biologist who was a secular Darwinist. I never heard of it being advanced by any proponent of ID so I find the propects exciting.
What is important for you to understand is that most of these things were relatively or virtually unknown 20 years ago!!! The trend for ID is up and the gaps in secular evolution are growing. I think we will win.
Don't take what we all say at face value.
"Beware of one one hand clapping."
What is ID to me?
Not only is it a learning process, it is a way of perception. It is a way of seeing through the irrational debate of secular evolutionists with critical analysis. I might make a good philosopher of science.
By the way, if you are impressed with the eruditeness of my post, don't let me fool you. I am an amateur and I have no official crucial scientific training. However, I have a brain and I have a background in other things formed by self-education through some experiences I have had in life. I think this gives me a unique perspective.

Edited by traderdrew, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Son, posted 06-09-2009 2:38 PM Son has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 26 by Son, posted 07-17-2009 1:56 PM traderdrew has replied
 Message 28 by CosmicChimp, posted 07-17-2009 2:16 PM traderdrew has replied
 Message 29 by Coyote, posted 07-17-2009 7:47 PM traderdrew has replied
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traderdrew
Member (Idle past 5267 days)
Posts: 379
From: Palm Beach, Florida
Joined: 04-27-2009


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Message 31 of 1273 (515488)
07-18-2009 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Son
07-17-2009 1:56 PM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
While it is intersting, I would like the simple questions I asked in the OP to be answered. In short, I would like to have some kind of "rough history of life" from an ID perspective.
Actually, I did answer your question in a round about way. (See below) I would say that I don't disagree with what science says about the age of the earth.
You see creationists take issues and work from science and they attempt to shoehorn those issues into a biblical framework. Proponents of ID should not attempt to do this. (At least not all of them do this.) They should look at the natural world from various scientific fields and form hypotheses from them.
I'm not saying there is something that is morally wrong with this or maybe even scientifically wrong with this. I think people should attempt to shed their religious bias when analyzing the evidence. This is easier said than done.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Son, posted 07-17-2009 1:56 PM Son has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Son, posted 07-18-2009 11:51 AM traderdrew has replied

traderdrew
Member (Idle past 5267 days)
Posts: 379
From: Palm Beach, Florida
Joined: 04-27-2009


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Message 32 of 1273 (515490)
07-18-2009 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by CosmicChimp
07-17-2009 2:16 PM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
You're going to have to expand on this a bit more. NS is directed. When an organism is out there struggling to survive and reproduce, do you really think it is undirected in its efforts? I think not. "Selection," the act of selection is a process of order not chaos as is "selection," the individuals or genes that have been able to get into the next generation.
I think reproduction is not undirected but the process of survival (many things that can happen) is not an overall directed process and cannot be quantified by linear mathematical formulas. Hence, this is why I think it is chaos. If you disagree with me, then I will rethink it.

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traderdrew
Member (Idle past 5267 days)
Posts: 379
From: Palm Beach, Florida
Joined: 04-27-2009


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Message 33 of 1273 (515494)
07-18-2009 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Coyote
07-17-2009 7:47 PM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
As stated, this is "an assertion" not a conclusion based on the scientific evidence. That assertion comes from religious belief, not scientific evidence.
Why does it have to be only from a religious point of view? There is something dishonest about this but I can't put my finger on it. It has something to do with the way you define science.
Of course! Twenty years ago is when the U.S. Supreme Court decided Edwards v. Aguillard, which removed creation "science" from the schools. Creation scientists had to come up with another dodge, and ID was it.
I was fresh out of high school 20 years ago. I was never taught creationism in school. I still remember the illustration of human/primate evolution in class.
Fine, but what it isn't is a science, and it is dishonest to try to claim that it is a science or that it is based on scientific evidence.
You would have to define science for me to debate you on this.
However, you should remember that a number of the folks here are scientists. And a deep understanding of a field of science isn't something that comes with casual study. Many of us have spent 30 or 40 years in intense study of a particular field. And we might just resent an amateur who comes along and tells us we don't know squat.
If you all were right and considering the sheer numbers of people here against me, you people should be drinking, laughing and having a good time with this forum at my expense by illustrating how dumb and stupid my comments are.

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traderdrew
Member (Idle past 5267 days)
Posts: 379
From: Palm Beach, Florida
Joined: 04-27-2009


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Message 35 of 1273 (515502)
07-18-2009 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Son
07-18-2009 11:51 AM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
I would like to know if for you, I.D. is some form of theistic evolutionism or something else.
I'm sure some people consider it as such but I never looked at any surveys of what some of the smartest people behind ID think. I'm sure Behe thinks it is theistic evolution.
If it's something else, please spell out clearly what is the history of life from an I.D. perspective.
Let me attempt to answer this starting with one of the fallacies made against ID.
Darwinists say: ID can't even begin to discredit neo-Darwinism because it has no theoretical form. Or in other words, It has never been reduced into a form that can be proposed as a hypothesis.
I used to think that they were right and that is one reason (of a few) why I started to forumulate my own called "assemblism". Although, I believe William Dembski proposed an ID hypothesis.
I later realized that an intelligent designer, assuming the IDer wasn't an alien but God, could do whatever God wants. If God wanted to build life with a box of tools such as but not limitied to Darwinism, symbiogenesis, and self-organization and assemble life from parts of some of the more simple lifeforms in order to form the more complex, then what would prevent God from doing this?
I'm sure there are some assumptions in this. It would presume that time isn't a concern for God.
Also, Stephen Meyer has pointed out that an intelligent designer doesn't have to break any natural laws in order to design things. People do it all of the time. We don't have to brake any natural laws when we venture into outer space.
Edited by traderdrew, : No reason given.
Edited by traderdrew, : No reason given.
Edited by traderdrew, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Son, posted 07-18-2009 11:51 AM Son has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Son, posted 07-18-2009 12:26 PM traderdrew has replied

traderdrew
Member (Idle past 5267 days)
Posts: 379
From: Palm Beach, Florida
Joined: 04-27-2009


(1)
Message 37 of 1273 (515508)
07-18-2009 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Son
07-18-2009 12:26 PM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
From what you told me so far, it seems to me that your version of ID is evolution + Intelligent Designer(theistic evolutionism). Meaning you don't disagree with what Evo says, just that they missed at least one mechanism(ID), is that right?
Yes, you can describe what I think that way but I would rather put it into something more like the following form:
Intelligent Designer uses tools and/or infuses complex specified information into the genome and as organisms evolve through microevolution. The way I put it is somewhat speculative so whether there are something that I have missed, I might change my view to accomodate what I come across.
Stephen Meyer has been highly influential on my thinking in this matter but I don't know if he would totally agree with me. I am still tryihg to piece this together. Stephen C. Meyer | Philosopher of Science

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Son, posted 07-18-2009 12:26 PM Son has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Son, posted 07-18-2009 12:56 PM traderdrew has replied

traderdrew
Member (Idle past 5267 days)
Posts: 379
From: Palm Beach, Florida
Joined: 04-27-2009


(1)
Message 38 of 1273 (515509)
07-18-2009 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Son
07-17-2009 1:56 PM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
People who use information as a proff of a designer usually have no idea what information theory says, or what information itself is. There is absolutely nothing that prevents information from arising naturally and increasing in complexity through a small series of steps.
If you can prove to me that complex specified information arises from the simple and then can gradually increase through a step by step unguided or self-organizational process, then I will leave this forum.
Better yet, I will become your attack dog for a month on this forum and then leave.
((This was a message in reply to Perdition, not Son.))I don't know why that happened
Edited by traderdrew, : No reason given.
Edited by traderdrew, : No reason given.
Edited by traderdrew, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Son, posted 07-17-2009 1:56 PM Son has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 41 by PaulK, posted 07-18-2009 12:58 PM traderdrew has replied

traderdrew
Member (Idle past 5267 days)
Posts: 379
From: Palm Beach, Florida
Joined: 04-27-2009


(1)
Message 42 of 1273 (515682)
07-20-2009 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by PaulK
07-18-2009 12:58 PM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
I would define it by the term William Dembski used.
Order but redundant information:
That That That That
Complexity:
random places or posts
Specified complexity:
Many of the Darwinists on evcforum.net don't like traderdrew.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by PaulK, posted 07-18-2009 12:58 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2009 2:10 PM traderdrew has replied

traderdrew
Member (Idle past 5267 days)
Posts: 379
From: Palm Beach, Florida
Joined: 04-27-2009


(1)
Message 43 of 1273 (515683)
07-20-2009 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Son
07-18-2009 12:56 PM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
Do you mean that for you, organisms micro evolve by themselves but that the intelligent designer intervene for macro evolution?
Yes but I don't know when or at what point an intelligent designer would intervene.
By the way, how does the intelligent designer intervene?
If the intelligent designers were aliens, they probably would abduct people and organisms.
For example, where is he? How does he manipulate populations from where he is? Etc...
I don't think that intelligent design has ventured into answering that question. There are certain things that intelligent design hasn't ventured into. I would have to think about if ID should investigate it. I do know one thing, ID doesn't tell us what religious rituals to perform or what kind of clothing we should wear.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Son, posted 07-18-2009 12:56 PM Son has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Son, posted 07-20-2009 4:22 PM traderdrew has replied

traderdrew
Member (Idle past 5267 days)
Posts: 379
From: Palm Beach, Florida
Joined: 04-27-2009


(2)
Message 45 of 1273 (515696)
07-20-2009 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by PaulK
07-20-2009 2:10 PM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
Wouldn't it be good to find one before asking for explanations of how it could exist ?
If you know of one then post it and I will study it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2009 2:10 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Son, posted 07-20-2009 4:06 PM traderdrew has replied
 Message 50 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2009 4:42 PM traderdrew has not replied
 Message 58 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-07-2009 5:50 AM traderdrew has replied

traderdrew
Member (Idle past 5267 days)
Posts: 379
From: Palm Beach, Florida
Joined: 04-27-2009


Message 47 of 1273 (515700)
07-20-2009 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Son
07-20-2009 4:06 PM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
Sorry about that. I will not do it again here. I was thinking of taking their posts and pasteing them in a thread below where we could have a big fight, but then again...
Apparently the "complex specified information" that I post on this forum isn't always specific. If it was repesented as an analogue in DNA it would probably fail to communicate the information.

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 Message 46 by Son, posted 07-20-2009 4:06 PM Son has not replied

traderdrew
Member (Idle past 5267 days)
Posts: 379
From: Palm Beach, Florida
Joined: 04-27-2009


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Message 49 of 1273 (515706)
07-20-2009 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Son
07-20-2009 4:22 PM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
So if you could give me a summary of what you think about it, it would be nice.
I would have to think about this if you would want an explanation that is a bit longer than the one I modified off wikipedia below. I am leaving town for a little while.
Intelligent design is the assertion that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by the involvement of (at least one) intelligence.
Moreover it doesn't contradict Evolution and only adds one mechanism that to it so I fail to see why it's a rival theory to Evolution so maybe I missed something?
I think some people reject it because of its religious implications and/or they are not thinking rationally about their demarcation argument. I think the first reason would explain the second.
It also doesn't have the same scale as Evolution, if true, it would only be a part of it.
I believe it has the same scale as the evidence of the fossil record would tell us. There are periods in the fossil record that show us some patterns that suggest design. Such as the hypothesis of an infusion of information into organisms during the Cambrian era. An example might be the introduction of lysyl oxidase into organisms. (If I didn't post this last sentence, you would see someone who would attempt to equivocate my last comment or spin off of it with an off topic post.)
Edited by traderdrew, : No reason given.

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traderdrew
Member (Idle past 5267 days)
Posts: 379
From: Palm Beach, Florida
Joined: 04-27-2009


(1)
Message 64 of 1273 (530432)
10-13-2009 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Luweewu
10-07-2009 12:02 AM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
What have fossils to do with the structure of reality?
I do not understand the basis of your question. I was referring mainly to the Cambrian explosion. Even some evolutionists such as Sean Carroll seem to refer to that particular era as remarkable. Read his book "Endless Forms Most Beautiful". Other evolutionists seem to be offended by the characterization of that era as an explosion.

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traderdrew
Member (Idle past 5267 days)
Posts: 379
From: Palm Beach, Florida
Joined: 04-27-2009


(1)
Message 65 of 1273 (530437)
10-13-2009 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Dr Adequate
10-07-2009 5:50 AM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
Someone debating you ... says that there are no examples of a certain thing ... and you reply by asking him to provide an example ... of the thing that he says doesn't exist.
I understand where you are coming from but obviously you didn't follow the thread back. PaulK and I have had this debate about CSI before. I have asked him, "If the information in DNA isn't CSI then, what is it then?" It certainly seems to be specified. Complex is a relative term but I would also say it is complex since the information forms proteins and these proteins also bind together. Proteins bind together in specific ways. (specific shapes, positive and negative bonds and lipid bonds)
I have been very busy lately and I would rather not get into another lengthy debate. I would rather debate Wounded King because he is the best of the best around here and he also seems to have a certain level of self-honesty.
The thinking of atheistic evolutionists seems to go something like this - "The creator would never have created life this way or let things run the way they are therefore, life must have evolved through a Darwinian process and either the Creationists are correct or Darwin was."
I think the above quote is naive.
Some others on this forum seem to have some sort of obligation to correct the double digit percentage of the American public who believe in Creation. Well I will tell you something, I am not a Creationist, I am a proponent of Intelligent Design and any body who refers to us as Creationists is disingenuous.
Intelligent Design is a new paradigm and I get it. It involves the thinking processes. An example of using my thinking to refute the Darwinists is the following Darwinist argument against irreducible complexity.
The flagellum first evolved from point A. A to B to C to D and so on. A turned into B and once B became C then there was no more need for B and so on.
If this is true then tell me what purposes and functions B and C served? What forms of locomotion (if any) were the precursors of the flagellum? Some such as Kenneth Miller use the TTSS as an example of a precursor but apparently recent developments and evidence from science seems to refute him.
Do you see how simple Darwinian conjecture can be and how it can fool the mind that wishes to believe in it?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by bluescat48, posted 10-13-2009 4:13 PM traderdrew has replied
 Message 67 by Theodoric, posted 10-13-2009 4:23 PM traderdrew has replied
 Message 68 by jacortina, posted 10-13-2009 4:39 PM traderdrew has replied
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traderdrew
Member (Idle past 5267 days)
Posts: 379
From: Palm Beach, Florida
Joined: 04-27-2009


(1)
(1)
Message 70 of 1273 (530648)
10-14-2009 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by bluescat48
10-13-2009 4:13 PM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
The original premise of the intelligent design movement was to get around the creator in the pseudoscience called "scientific creation" to get around the religious aspects after the supreme court descision in Edwards v. Aguillard in 1987, which struck down the Louisiana equal treatment law. (ref. Why People Believe Weird Things, Michael Shermer, pg161.)
So therefore intelligent design couldn't possibly be conceptually applied as anything else since it was derived from Creationism? In other words, once the intention was established, the term must never be modified or used in another way? Your argument sounds like a strawman argument to me.
I stated it before and I state it again here. Creationism attempts to shoehorn the evidence into a Biblical framework. Intelligent Design derives its ideas from the evidence.

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