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Author Topic:   Air Force Academy creates worship area for Pagans, Druids, and Wiccans
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 168 of 244 (557002)
04-22-2010 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by Faith
04-22-2010 1:19 AM


Re: How America is/was Christian and how it is not
Columbus's motives were entirely Christian, basically to convert the world to Christ wherever he found anyone in need of conversion. Yes he was looking for a route to India but he understood that God led him to the New World instead.
But...wasn't Columbus one of those false Christians (aka Catholics)?
Why are you, a True Christian, basing anything off of what he did or said?
Even if his motives were pure (which they weren't), don't you think that his campaign of slavery and genocide belie his Christian motives? Or don't the suffering of pagan indigenous people matter to you?

"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London
"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Faith, posted 04-22-2010 1:19 AM Faith has not replied

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


(1)
Message 169 of 244 (557004)
04-22-2010 4:52 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Faith
04-21-2010 11:44 PM


Re: Such as?
Yes, but in exalting virtue he is explicitly denying the right to exalt one's creed above others and requiring rendering honor to other creeds. This can only be done among followers of equal gods, but Christians do have the "arrogance" to believe we are following THE one and only God above them all, and we cannot say or do anything to imply otherwise. That always eventually puts us under persecution wherever the pagan gods are exalted.
Or when NO gods are. Like in our present day America.
Christians constantly feel persecuted here because they cannot exalt their god over any other or none.
They claim persecution when they cannot force other kids to pray or listen to their prayers.
They claim persecution when they cannot harass people of other religions or people who are gay.
Their religion mandates that they constantly harass people. That automatically pits their religion against the American Constitution.
It mandates that they be against the article in the OP.
That is unconstitutional. We have secular laws that allow for all forms of worship or none.
You can dredge up all of the maybes of personal opinion of the Founding Fathers, but the beauty of the Constitution is that the personal opinions of the individual authors didn't matter much.
The beauty of their thinking is that they realized that were fallible. They each realized that a government ruled by their own opinion would be a monarchy. They tried to institute (and quite successfully, despite the hiccups, IMO) a form of government that wasn't ruled by any one of their own opinions or religions, but one that would respect most of the people most of the time with rules in place to protect those who didn't have a great amount of power.
Faith, I would like you to read the whole letters that contain the quotes you have used in this debate. These men were more intelligent and less rigid than you have portrayed them to be.

"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London
"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Faith, posted 04-21-2010 11:44 PM Faith has not replied

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 170 of 244 (557010)
04-22-2010 5:37 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Faith
04-21-2010 9:33 PM


Re: Freedom of religion
I say it came through Locke and I know he was taught by John Owen and I know that John Owen had suffered as a Puritan the intolerance of his beliefs by the established English church, and he wrote prodigiously about the necessity of honoring freedom of conscience, which is the main basis for freedom of religion as it says belief cannot be compelled and must be kept free of coercion.
How can thought or belief be kept free of coercion if first grade reading books are based on Christian Bible readings? Or if Christian prayers are recited in school? Or if Congress is opened by an invocation of Jesus Christ? Or if Congress members are welcomed in the name of Jesus Christ? Or if Presidents openly endorse certain religions through their speech and/or actions?
How are any of the above (but especially the ones involving children) not coercion?
Nobody was fighting in Constitutional America. DeToqueville reported on a peaceful society saturated in a spirit of religion that the people held to be indistinguishable from their political life.
I'm not sure why you use de Tocqueville as a support for "Constitutional America" seeing as how he was born 14 years after the Constitution was ratified.
I also fail to see why you use a Frenchman as any sort of support since you clearly think that France at the time (and maybe now?) was a moral cesspool.

"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London
"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Faith, posted 04-21-2010 9:33 PM Faith has not replied

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


(1)
Message 171 of 244 (557011)
04-22-2010 5:54 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Faith
04-21-2010 11:26 PM


Re: Such as?
Well, but you do need the Christian version of religious freedom for the kind of religious freedom that we have. What they have is not the same freedom of religion, it's simply one pagan god honoring another, but not the true God. But the true God respects His human creation and their choices and honors them despite their religions.
Sorry, but I have to go off topic here.
No, Faith your god does NOT respect humans or honor their faults. He told his followers to kill those who worship other gods. No exceptions. Babies included.
He sends those who don't toe the line to a fiery pit of doom for eternity for the choices that he made them for.
He is a tyrant. He hates human free will. He loathes humans so much that he devised an eternity of pain and sorrow for those who don't sign up for his mind games.
A peaceful society cannot possibly be derived from your sociopathic god's will.

"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London
"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Faith, posted 04-21-2010 11:26 PM Faith has not replied

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 172 of 244 (557012)
04-22-2010 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Faith
04-22-2010 1:41 AM


Re: Freedom of religion
Que?
Please elaborate. Maybe start a new topic?

"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London
"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Faith, posted 04-22-2010 1:41 AM Faith has not replied

  
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