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Author Topic:   Air Force Academy creates worship area for Pagans, Druids, and Wiccans
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2269 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 196 of 244 (557138)
04-22-2010 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Faith
04-22-2010 8:19 PM


Re: separation of church and state etc.
Changing it has to be a formal process that allows a voice to all interested parties.

Fine except you don't ascribe to this as you stated in message 16:

The idea that the first amendment was ever meant to give space to anything OTHER than the Christian religion in this nation is something you and I are going to disagree on.

Evidentl, to you, all interested parties must be Christian which is downright stupid.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Faith, posted 04-22-2010 8:19 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1181 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 197 of 244 (557148)
04-23-2010 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by Faith
04-21-2010 7:08 PM


Re: the term "religion"
ABE: But to try to state it: religion is NOTHING BUT following rituals and do's and don't's, no relationship with God whatever.

That is not what Muslims or Jews believe or nearly any other religion. This is your own stereotypical biased view of other religions. Anyone of another religion can say the same thing about Christianity.

Case in point:

People's Relationship With Allah

Jewish faith and God: The relationship with God


“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Faith, posted 04-21-2010 7:08 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Son Goku
Member (Idle past 44 days)
Posts: 1120
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005


Message 198 of 244 (557150)
04-23-2010 4:19 AM


Pagan Weddings
The timing of this thread coincides with something similar here in Ireland. In February this year the Irish government recognised Pagan Weddings. Previously a Pagan couple had to have a civil ceremony and then later perform the wedding according to their customs.

However we now have state-recognized Druids who may perform the service and apparently a Druid school, for the first time in 1400 years.

I'm unsure if the recognition extends to all pagan faiths or just Celtic polytheism.

(I'm also aware how crude the term pagan is, since it's equivalent to "Faith that isn't one of the modern big ones". I'd say polytheistic, but not all of them have gods.)


  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1181 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 199 of 244 (557153)
04-23-2010 4:48 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Faith
04-21-2010 7:07 PM


Re: How America is/was Christian and how it is not
Faith writes:

I do not deny that there was some, but please name the incidents of Protestant blood on their hands and give statistics comparing the scope of their offenses to the Catholic church's.

Comparing statistics is a cop-out. Is it any more correct if 50 people are tortured and murdered than if 5000 are? However here are a few examples of attrocities conducted in the name of the protestant religion directly by protestants and invoking the Bible to defend their actions:

1. The Red Holocaust: The Native American Slaughter in which Protestant Christians drove out and killed either directly or indirectly literally millions of Native Americans in the name of Manifest or Divine Destiny, in which they believed they had the God-given right and envoked 'Divine Providence' to take any land they discovered either peacebly or if necessary (and very often) by force on their westward march through North America irregardless of the native inhabitants.

Journalist John L. O'Sullivan writes:

And that claim is by the right of our manifest destiny to overspread and to possess the whole of the continent which Providence has given us for the development of the great experiment of liberty and federated self-government entrusted to us.

President Andrew Jackson enacted the "Indian Removal Act" in 1830 which by military force evicted over 70,000 Indians from most of the Southeastern USA and in which over 10,000 died either because of the forced eviction itself or the disease and starvation that directly resulted from these measures. One of the most appalling cases was the 'Trail of Tears' in which all of the Cherokee tribes (who were at the time peaceful allies of the American people) located in Georgia and Florida were forcibly removed a thousand miles to Oklahoma, and in which about 4000 men, women and children died along the way. In some cases smallpox laiden blankets were given to Native Americans in order to introduce disease into their villages and thus weaken and reduce their population.

Colonel Bouquet writes:

I will try to inoculate the [Indians] with some blankets that may fall into their hands, and take care not to get the disease myself. As it is pity to expose good men against then, I wish we could make use of the Spanish method, to hunt them with English dogs, supported by rangers and some light horse, who would, I think, effectually extirpate or remove the vermin.

Kenneth Davis writes:

Hollywood has left the impression that the great Indian wars came in the Old West during the late 1800's, a period that many think of simplistically as the "cowboy and Indian" days. But in fact that was a "mopping up" effort. By that time the Indians were nearly finished, their subjugation complete, their numbers decimated. The killing, enslavement, and land theft had begun with the arrival of the Europeans. But it may have reached its nadir when it became federal policy under President (Andrew) Jackson.

Much of these attrocities were conducted envoking their 'God-given' rights and freedoms to move west irregardless of the Native American inhabitants and the often disasterous results that ensued.

2. Southern Slavery: White southern protestant slave owners used the Bible to defend their right to own millions of slaves and many though not all believed that they had the right to fervently discipline their slaves, as property. Slaves were often tortured, raped (in the case of the women and young girls), and killed if they tried to resist or escape. Many protestant pastors of the South actively endorsed these rights to owning slaves stating it was a God-given right and duty as shown in the Bible.

3. Witch Trials in Colonial America. Need I say more?

In fact, just the two examples above of attrocities that occured under the government of Protestant Christians puts the inquisition to shame. The Spanish Inquisition held about 49,000 trials in Europe, tortured many of those tried and killed about 4-5000 of those people. That pales in comparision to the hundreds of thousands to millions of Native Americans raped, murdered and pillaged by both Catholic and Protestant Christians alike.

Am I saying that all Protestant Americans participated in these attrocities? Of course not. But were all Catholic Europeans advocates of the Inquisition?

My point being that their is plently of blame to be spread around on both sides. Both sides were complicit in these attrocities and both Protestant and Catholics at the time bear the blame.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.


“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Faith, posted 04-21-2010 7:07 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7673
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 200 of 244 (557166)
04-23-2010 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by Buzsaw
04-22-2010 1:11 PM


Re: Again And Again, Promoting Not Establishment
A lot of things, Taq? How about some specificities.

Others have mentioned the more obvious ones.

One of those rights is the free exercise of religion and the Constitution does not limit that free exercise in government buildings or functions.

But according to you Congress should have the right to strip people of their right to freely exercise their religious beliefs if a majority of Congress votes in support of such an idea.

Also, free exercise is a right of the individual. The government, as an entity, does not have this right. The government does not have the right to allow one faith to be allowed while excluding others, the whole point of the OP.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Buzsaw, posted 04-22-2010 1:11 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7673
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 201 of 244 (557167)
04-23-2010 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by Faith
04-22-2010 2:27 PM


Re: Again And Again, Promoting Not Establishment
Interesting. At least you're honest. And you'd have stood up and heckled George Washington when he gave his farewell address too I suppose, all those references to God,

A search of the document finds no mention of God.

http://www.earlyamerica.com/...milestones/farewell/text.html

Perhaps you were thinking of something different?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Faith, posted 04-22-2010 2:27 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7673
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 202 of 244 (557183)
04-23-2010 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Faith
04-22-2010 7:10 PM


Re: separation of church and state etc.
Separation of church and state is fine by me if understood as it was originally understood, not as a club to be wielded against religion.

How is the first amendment being used as a club against religion?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Faith, posted 04-22-2010 7:10 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 203 of 244 (557218)
04-23-2010 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Dr Adequate
04-22-2010 4:47 PM


Dr Adequate writes:

quote:
Women were not allowed to vote.

Indeed, but not because the Constitution specifically denied women the right to vote, per se.

The closest to that is from the 14th Amendment:

But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

Note the assumption: Male voters. Reduction of the population count with regard to representational numbers is based upon male voters.

Now, women were routinely denied the right to vote, but that was due to State laws, not Federal.

The 14th Amendment was ratified in 1868, but the Wyoming Territory granted women the right to vote in 1869. In New Jersey, women were allowed to vote from 1790 to 1807, but had that right taken away.

And then there's Utah. Utah granted women's suffrage in the hopes that they would vote down polygamy. When they didn't, they were disenfranchised.

There was no reason women couldn't vote as far as the Constitution was concerned. Before the passage of the 19th Amendment, Colorado, Idaho, Utah, and Wyoming all granted women the right to vote.

The reason why we needed the 19th Amendment had to do with States denying women the right to vote. The Federal government does not conduct elections. The States do. The Constitution defines eligibility requirements for candidates and the way the Executive and Legislative members are chosen from the votes, but it does not define the voting methods. That is a matter left to the States.

Similarly with the 15th and 26th Amendments. There was no Constitutional provision to deny suffrage to those who weren't white or those who weren't 21 (age limits from the 14th Amendment notwithstanding). It's that the States wouldn't let them.

Even today, though the Constitution specifically makes mention that suffrage cannot be denied to those 18 years of age or more, there's no reason that a State couldn't, on its own, extend that right to all citizens of all ages.

Similarly, there is nothing preventing a State from saying that in order to vote, you must have a college degree.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-22-2010 4:47 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-23-2010 10:46 PM Rrhain has responded
 Message 206 by subbie, posted 04-23-2010 11:08 PM Rrhain has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16086
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 204 of 244 (557220)
04-23-2010 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Rrhain
04-23-2010 9:44 PM


The 14th Amendment was ratified in 1868, but the Wyoming Territory granted women the right to vote in 1869.

Thanks for the information. If I'm ever in Wyoming, I'll buy a hat and take it off.

So far as I know, the first country to give women the right to vote was New Zealand, which I had always considered as the world's first true democracy. But the great state of Wyoming may indeed claim precedence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Rrhain, posted 04-23-2010 9:44 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Buzsaw, posted 04-24-2010 4:54 PM Dr Adequate has responded
 Message 225 by Rrhain, posted 04-24-2010 8:47 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2269 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 205 of 244 (557222)
04-23-2010 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Faith
04-22-2010 7:10 PM


Re: separation of church and state etc.
In this I find the founders at fault myself, that they didn't realize that the first amendment could be used as a weapon against what they assumed was the natural place of religion in public life.

Where has this been done? example please.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Faith, posted 04-22-2010 7:10 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
subbie
Member (Idle past 40 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 206 of 244 (557225)
04-23-2010 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Rrhain
04-23-2010 9:44 PM


Similarly, there is nothing preventing a State from saying that in order to vote, you must have a college degree.

While you are correct that there is nothing in the Constitution expressly prohibiting such a requirement, I suspect that courts would likely strike any such requirement under reasoning similar to that in Harper v. Virginia Board of Elections.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Rrhain, posted 04-23-2010 9:44 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Rrhain, posted 04-24-2010 9:00 PM subbie has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5954
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 207 of 244 (557301)
04-24-2010 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Faith
04-22-2010 1:06 PM


Re: Freedom of religion
The original laws of the American government were based on the Bible. Read Blackstone.

The original laws of the American government were not based on the Bible. Read Jefferson.

You might want to try his letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper and his letter to John Cartwright.
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/jefferson_cooper.html
http://yamaguchy.netfirms.com/...1/jefferson/cartwright.html


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Faith, posted 04-22-2010 1:06 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 208 of 244 (557329)
04-24-2010 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Dr Adequate
04-23-2010 10:46 PM


Re: Voting Rights
Dr Adequate writes:

Thanks for the information. If I'm ever in Wyoming, I'll buy a hat and take it off.

So far as I know, the first country to give women the right to vote was New Zealand, which I had always considered as the world's first true democracy. But the great state of Wyoming may indeed claim precedence.

I grew up in Wyoming where the majority of men effectively apprised their women on voting wisdom. However too many of them unwisely ignored the phenomenal fact of the male leadership role throughout human history and in most of the animal kingdom ever since the recording of history.

Since women are more emotional and easily persuaded and manipulated, imo, voting is not included in their role, though their legitimate role in culture is no less important than that of the male.

Why, Dr Adequate, have most door to door sales companies advocated dealing with the woman of the house?


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-23-2010 10:46 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Theodoric, posted 04-24-2010 5:11 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 210 by DrJones*, posted 04-24-2010 5:36 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 211 by subbie, posted 04-24-2010 5:42 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 212 by Apothecus, posted 04-24-2010 5:53 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 217 by PsychMJC, posted 04-24-2010 7:24 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 218 by Coyote, posted 04-24-2010 7:30 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 227 by Rrhain, posted 04-24-2010 9:09 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 244 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-27-2010 8:39 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5954
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 209 of 244 (557330)
04-24-2010 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Buzsaw
04-24-2010 4:54 PM


I have only one response
Wow!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Buzsaw, posted 04-24-2010 4:54 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1806
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 210 of 244 (557335)
04-24-2010 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Buzsaw
04-24-2010 4:54 PM


Re: Voting Rights
Since women are more emotional and easily persuaded and manipulated, imo, voting is not included in their role, though their legitimate role in culture is no less important than that of the male.

So not surprisingly Buz is a sexist as well as a racist.


It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Buzsaw, posted 04-24-2010 4:54 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
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