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Author Topic:   Creationist problems with radiocarbon dating
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 194 (671178)
08-22-2012 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by David Carroll
08-22-2012 5:14 PM


Philosophy?? Physics not metaphysics
The philosophical problem is this: Since the Creationist Worldview (or at least a large segment of it) maintains that life in this universe has corrupted and decayed since the time of the Fall, it would not make sense to stipulate that things decay (including isotopes) more slowly NOW than they did at the beginning.

I think you are hurtling towards a cliff of your own making. There are a number of things offered as reasons for radioactive decay rates (or accumulation rates in the case of C14) being different. One answer I've seen offered in these forums are differences in conditions after the flood rather than post-Fall. In any event, I would never attempt to rebut creationists claims by arguing directly that decay rates should have been lower instead of higher pre-Fall because the world was "perfect" pre-Fall.

I cannot remember anyone citing in evidence that decay rates have changed. What we have seen is a number of excuses for why there is no evidence.

As for the speed of light changing, the "evidence" for such a thing is based on cherry picking old speed of light determinations, ignoring the uncertainty associated with those old measurements, and some sleight of hand bordering on lying to remove data points that suggest that the speed of light is actual increasing.

A faster speed of "light" ... resulting in a quicker decay rate.

And also a change in energy of the emitted particle, something for which we have evidence has not occurred over hundreds of millions of years. See the thread on Uranium halos in this same forum.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by David Carroll, posted 08-22-2012 5:14 PM David Carroll has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by David Carroll, posted 08-24-2012 12:39 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 100 of 194 (671365)
08-24-2012 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by David Carroll
08-24-2012 12:39 PM


Re: Philosophy?? Physics not metaphysics
Thank you, NoNukes. Your answer to the effect that, most likely, c has not changed (or, indeed, that is increasing) is very enlightening.

I didn't say the speed of light was increasing. My point was that one could cherry pick some speed of light measurements and do a faulty analysis leading to that result.

Thus, we living after this event would not notice any changes in c during our epoch. In fact, might it not be possible that this quantum leap of sudden c-change

Such a theory would not be consistent with observations of SN1987A unless that change was more than 168,000 years ago. Is there some point in speculating that the speed of light was greater than the current value at some time earlier than that?

was so large that it would more than balance any subsequent charlie-increase after the event?

There is no subsequent increase in the speed of light in a vacuum.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by David Carroll, posted 08-24-2012 12:39 PM David Carroll has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by David Carroll, posted 08-24-2012 9:12 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 119 of 194 (683928)
12-14-2012 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by morningstar2008
12-14-2012 8:06 AM


I live in a coal mining town in Australia and see first hand a massive volume of evidence for a massive flood event on a whole planet scale.

Probably no point in asking this, but what kind of evidence for anything on a planetary scale could you possible see in Australia?

ABE:

Obviously if something happened on a global scale, then it also happened in Australia, but what would constitute evidence that something seen in Australia alone was a planet wide event?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by morningstar2008, posted 12-14-2012 8:06 AM morningstar2008 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Panda, posted 12-14-2012 5:41 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 131 of 194 (684154)
12-16-2012 4:08 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by morningstar2008
12-16-2012 2:26 AM


Suggestion
You might try translating the English text back to Russian before posting. If the re-translated Russian text does not make sense, then don't put it on the forum.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by morningstar2008, posted 12-16-2012 2:26 AM morningstar2008 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by morningstar2008, posted 12-16-2012 4:36 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 143 of 194 (684270)
12-16-2012 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by morningstar2008
12-16-2012 9:17 PM


Re: Percy
In principle, carbon dating only confuses

The reason nobody can address your question is that we have yet to see a post containing anything we can understand that challenges a date obtained through carbon dating. Perhaps you can make an attempt to communicate the specifics of some age obtained by carbon dating that you believe to be wrong.

Let's also remember that dates obtained by carbon dating are of necessity less than 50,000 years in the past. No scientist claims carbon dating to be of any use for measuring ages greater than that.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by morningstar2008, posted 12-16-2012 9:17 PM morningstar2008 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by morningstar2008, posted 12-16-2012 11:06 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 150 of 194 (684302)
12-17-2012 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by morningstar2008
12-16-2012 11:06 PM


Re: NoNukes
I yield.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by morningstar2008, posted 12-16-2012 11:06 PM morningstar2008 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by morningstar2008, posted 12-17-2012 1:45 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 167 of 194 (684431)
12-17-2012 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by morningstar2008
12-17-2012 2:47 PM


Re: Calibration of Radiocarbon Dating, an old earth, and calibrations
Of all of these reasons, I realized one thing. You want to get rid of you uncomfortable conversation.

You could not be more wrong. Most of the participants here really enjoy debating this stuff. Unfortunately, holding a conversation with you is entirely too difficult to be enjoyable.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by morningstar2008, posted 12-17-2012 2:47 PM morningstar2008 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by morningstar2008, posted 12-17-2012 8:42 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 177 of 194 (684591)
12-18-2012 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by morningstar2008
12-18-2012 12:35 AM


Re: Radiocarbon Dating and basics of radioactive decay
What event are we describing using a date result of 50 billion years, or even 20 billion years? Aren't those values greater than the current age of the entire universe? (ducking head before you know who shows up...)

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by morningstar2008, posted 12-18-2012 12:35 AM morningstar2008 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by morningstar2008, posted 12-18-2012 1:22 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply
 Message 185 by morningstar2008, posted 12-18-2012 2:33 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 184 of 194 (684750)
12-18-2012 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by morningstar2008
12-18-2012 3:55 AM


Re: Radiocarbon Dating
I think that the fight against the creationists is killing a lot of time in the modern scientist.

Working scientists spend essentially no time and energy worrying about what creationists do or say. There is no scientific debate about whether the earth is only 6000 years old.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by morningstar2008, posted 12-18-2012 3:55 AM morningstar2008 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by morningstar2008, posted 12-18-2012 2:40 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
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