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Author Topic:   Avoiding Aliens
Taz
Member (Idle past 1578 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 46 of 62 (557747)
04-27-2010 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Rahvin
04-27-2010 6:58 PM


Rahvin writes:

I'm also dismissive for the most part of the motivation an alien species would have to come here. So far as we understand, FTL is not possible. That means that there is no reasonable threat posed by cheap, easy, FTL travel like what we see in movies. The reasonable methods by which an alien race would come here involve extremely long travel times with a significant investment in resources, and an STL approach that we very well may see years in advance because of the thermal (and possibly other) emissions of the ship(s). That means a machine race, or cryonic storage, or massive generation ships. Like I;ve suggested previously.


It's funny how after several posts of me pointing out that you're describing how advance alien races would or would not travel through space based on our very limited understanding of space travel, you're still doing it. Again, if this was the 50s, you'd probably be describing everything in terms of vacuum tubes.

Do you have anything substantial to say, or are you simply going to continue with your wonderfully vague "lol, expect the unexpected" platitudes?

So, let me get this straight. I can't call out a know-it-all attitude? I'm sorry if I bursted your bubble.

Added by edit.

This thread is a wonderful demonstration of how star trek evolved over the years. The technologies in the original series looked cool to the people back then, but it sucks to us nowadays. Kirk was a sexist pig, but now Picard is an idealistic bleeding heart liberal. What's worse, when Harry Kim first met Janeway, he didn't know whether to address her as sir or mam... as if they're still debating this in the future. Memo: this debate has been settled for years now in the professional world. Sir for man and mam for woman are perfectly acceptable social norms.

You're doing the same thing as star trek producers. You're describing the future based on your current understanding of what's out there and stamp your foot on the ground and says "this is it, there's no other possibility".

I'd drop this whole thing if you had just added a line admitting you're only basing your claims on observations of our current time and technological level. But you're throwing these univeral claims out there without leaving room for anything unexpected. There's that magic word again.

Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

Edited by Taz, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Rahvin, posted 04-27-2010 6:58 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

  
Species8472
Junior Member (Idle past 3168 days)
Posts: 29
Joined: 01-13-2010


Message 47 of 62 (558207)
04-30-2010 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Rahvin
04-27-2010 6:58 PM


Rahvin, permit me to share a slightly different perspective on this matter.

I come from a family of resistence fighters and soldiers on the battle field. In fact, I somewhat feel ashamed that I haven't been man enough to fight to make a difference even though in the past 4 generations before me all my predecessors fought to make a difference. My great great grandfather and great grandfather were resistence fighters against the French occupation. My grandfather started out fighting against the French, and when the French were finally defeated, he joined the fight against the communists. My father picked up that fight and was imprisoned for 7 years as a political prisoner. My grandfather lost all his siblings to the French executioners, and all my father's siblings lost their lives in the Vietnam War. On my mother's side, both her brothers lost their lives defending the Capitol when the communists put it under seige.

So, we have a sort of family tradition regarding foreign invaders that include lots of rules of thumbs and stories that have been passed down for several generations now.

When the French first came to our shores, they were merely merchants and traders. They brought a lot of new goods that a lot of our people wanted. Then the missionaries came and converted many people. The Vietnamese government at the time at first welcomed the French "visitors" for all the good that they did. But after seeing what happened with China (the opium trade, the boxer rebellion, etc.) the government began to take steps to prevent the loss of the country. Seeing how the French have gained quite a devout population of followers through christianity, they banned it. Then the French army came, laying seige to our cities. My father has told me that his father told him that when the French massacred the Vietnamese army, some people actually cheered.

After the cities fell, the people were either killed or enslaved. If anything, historical references nowadays fail to account for all the lives that were lost and the miseries that took place.

And despite all of that, the French still had a population of devout converts to do their biddings. Nowadays, there is a saying that people still say in Vietnamese relating to the race traitors. Whenever someone is being loud, we'd say, "why are you as loud as one being pointed out by a race traitor?" You see, back in the old days, the French would place converts, usually young people, among the local populations. Every once in a while, the French would line up entire towns and have the race traitor walk out (completely covered up so nobody could recognize him) and point to the people he had heard say bad things about the French. And then those people pointed out would be taken into custody and tortured for names. That's why when they were pointed out, they'd scream bloody murder. Get the joke?

I have been watching V, and the series actually gives us a very plausible scenario of how an alien race would conquer us. They would come with a lot of promises and goods that we want. They would arm themselves with the most powerful weapon out there: devotion. They would encourage our own people to persecute those who are against them. They would recruit our young to betray their own parents. And by the time their true intentions are revealed, it would be too late.

Now, a lot of you are pointing out just how irrational an alien race would be to spend all that resources coming here to subdue us. My grandfather used to say that his generation always wondered why the French came to our land and enslaved our people. There were plenty of room and resources out in the world. Why come here at all?

My grandfather and his peers couldn't understand why the French would spend so much efforts and resources to conquer a country on the other side of the world. And this was when the French were occupying our country and killing our people.

If there's one thing we should learn from history, it's that conquerors and tyrants are seldom rational. Since when was the last time we saw a conqueror or tyrant that was rational and logical?

You laugh at the idea now...

PS - I never understood why history refers to race traitors as sympathizers. They're not nazi sympathizers. They're not french sympathizers. They're not anything sympathizers. They're simply race traitors. And I'm willing to bet when the real alien conquerors come, we'll have a whole population of "visitor sympathizers" among us.

Edited by Species8472, : No reason given.

Edited by Species8472, : No reason given.

Edited by Species8472, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Rahvin, posted 04-27-2010 6:58 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-30-2010 10:52 AM Species8472 has responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5826
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 48 of 62 (558208)
04-30-2010 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Species8472
04-30-2010 10:45 AM


Fearing fear itself
If there's one thing we should learn from history, it's that conquerors and tyrants are seldom rational. Since when was the last time we saw a conqueror or tyrant that was rational and logical?

You laught at the idea now...

There is a critical difference before the story you shared and aliens. We KNOW the French exist. We don't know if aliens exist, let alone whether or not they are intelligent, and if they are intelligent, whether or not they're hostile.

Do you see the problem? There are so many hypotheticals that it really isn't worth agonizing over. You're placing the cart way before the horse here. It's misguided fear based on Sci-Fi novels and Hollywood. You are fearing fear itself.


"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Species8472, posted 04-30-2010 10:45 AM Species8472 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Species8472, posted 04-30-2010 11:30 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
Species8472
Junior Member (Idle past 3168 days)
Posts: 29
Joined: 01-13-2010


Message 49 of 62 (558222)
04-30-2010 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Hyroglyphx
04-30-2010 10:52 AM


Re: Fearing fear itself
Hroglyphx writes:

There is a critical difference before the story you shared and aliens. We KNOW the French exist. We don't know if aliens exist, let alone whether or not they are intelligent, and if they are intelligent, whether or not they're hostile.


I was responding to the claim that if aliens exist they wouldn't come here or try to conquer us. I wasn't trying to argue for the existence of aliens.

Do you see the problem? There are so many hypotheticals that it really isn't worth agonizing over. You're placing the cart way before the horse here. It's misguided fear based on Sci-Fi novels and Hollywood. You are fearing fear itself.

Again, I'm not trying to make an argument for the existence of aliens.

The argument that I am making is that if aliens do exist we should take a cautious step toward meeting them. I'm not saying they do exist and that they will conquer us. I am saying IFF they do exist, they might try to conquer us. And one of the ways they might use to conquer us is lure us in with promises and goods.

It's misguided fear based on Sci-Fi novels and Hollywood.

I'm not basing my fear on scifi novels and hollywood. Like I said before, I come from a family that spent generations fighting conquerors (that we didn't even know existed) that first came to us with a lot of promises and goods only to enslave us later on.

I have found that it's become quite a popular method to discredit someone by claiming he got this idea or that idea from works of fiction. It's pretty much another way of ridiculing the person instead of facing his arguments directly.

But anyway, do you see what I am saying? I'm NOT making the argument that there ARE aliens and that they will destroy us.

Edited by Species8472, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-30-2010 10:52 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Straggler, posted 04-30-2010 11:36 AM Species8472 has not yet responded
 Message 51 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-30-2010 12:07 PM Species8472 has responded

    
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 50 of 62 (558223)
04-30-2010 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Species8472
04-30-2010 11:30 AM


Re: Fearing fear itself
The argument that I am making is that if aliens do exist we should take a cautious step toward meeting them. I'm not saying they do exist and that they will conquer us. I am saying IFF they do exist, they might try to conquer us. And one of the ways they might use to conquer us is lure us in with promises and goods.

I am not sure what we could provide aliens capable of interstellar space travel with such that we would be worth conquering?

I also cannot see why, if that technologically advanced, they would need to dupe us with "promises and goods".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Species8472, posted 04-30-2010 11:30 AM Species8472 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Aware Wolf, posted 04-30-2010 12:32 PM Straggler has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5826
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 51 of 62 (558234)
04-30-2010 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Species8472
04-30-2010 11:30 AM


Re: Fearing fear itself
But anyway, do you see what I am saying? I'm NOT making the argument that there ARE aliens and that they will destroy us.

I do, thanks for clarifying. However, isn't the only point of the inquiry in reference to aliens existing? Basing aliens desire to conquer is based soley on your family's experience of having been invaded. I am just pointing out that we know nothing of aliens or even if they exist, so that any fears stem from the human mind, not reality.


"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Species8472, posted 04-30-2010 11:30 AM Species8472 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Species8472, posted 04-30-2010 1:16 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
Aware Wolf
Member (Idle past 774 days)
Posts: 154
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 02-13-2009


Message 52 of 62 (558243)
04-30-2010 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Straggler
04-30-2010 11:36 AM


Re: Fearing fear itself
There may be alien psychological reasons why they might want to subjugate us, quite apart from any question of resources. Maybe their evolution led to their adoption of a hierarchical system where those higher up are responsible for running the lives of those beneath them. This might make them think that taking control of us is the moral thing to do. They may be incapable of seeing it "our" way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Straggler, posted 04-30-2010 11:36 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 53 of 62 (558260)
04-30-2010 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Aware Wolf
04-30-2010 12:32 PM


Re: Fearing fear itself
They may be incapable of seeing it "our" way.

And why should they?

Given that I have argued (elsewhere) that our own treatment of species that we consider inferior is rationally unjustifiable and that we would be hypocrites to expect anything different from alien visitors it would be silly of me to disagree with you.

There may be alien psychological reasons why they might want to subjugate us, quite apart from any question of resources. Maybe their evolution led to their adoption of a hierarchical system where those higher up are responsible for running the lives of those beneath them. This might make them think that taking control of us is the moral thing to do.

For reasons that may be wholly unjustified I think most assume that technological advancement and increasing moral enlightenment go hand in hand.

But you are quite right to point out that alien morality may take a very different path.

But it is all ifs, buts and maybes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Aware Wolf, posted 04-30-2010 12:32 PM Aware Wolf has not yet responded

  
Species8472
Junior Member (Idle past 3168 days)
Posts: 29
Joined: 01-13-2010


Message 54 of 62 (558263)
04-30-2010 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Hyroglyphx
04-30-2010 12:07 PM


Re: Fearing fear itself
Hyroglyphx writes:

Basing aliens desire to conquer is based soley on your family's experience of having been invaded.


I know where you're going with this. And I can understand that, since when was the last time native born Americans had to fight off a foreign invader?

Before the French came, Vietnam was occupied by the Chinese Empire for many generations. Mongolia even staged an invasion of Vietnam. They retreated because their horses were useless in our jungles.

Before the Chinese, Mongolian, and French came, our people had no idea they existed.

The kind of fear of an invasion from a foreign enemy whose existence we don't even know about just doesn't go away that easily. As far as my family is concern, I'm the first generation in probably the last thousand years that doesn't have to fight off a foreign invader of some sort.

So, in short, yes call me delusional if you like. I'd rather be careful and nothing happens than not paying attention and be caught off guard.

I'm curious. Since all the supposed fears I have pointed out are just a delusion to you, how would you recommend we approach a first contact situation? Welcome them as benefactors to us exactly like how the Vietnamese first greeted the French?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-30-2010 12:07 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-30-2010 2:56 PM Species8472 has responded

    
Species8472
Junior Member (Idle past 3168 days)
Posts: 29
Joined: 01-13-2010


Message 55 of 62 (558264)
04-30-2010 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Aware Wolf
04-30-2010 12:32 PM


Re: Fearing fear itself
Aware Wolf writes:

There may be alien psychological reasons why they might want to subjugate us, quite apart from any question of resources. Maybe their evolution led to their adoption of a hierarchical system where those higher up are responsible for running the lives of those beneath them. This might make them think that taking control of us is the moral thing to do. They may be incapable of seeing it "our" way.


This may not even need to be alien. The white man's burden, manifest destiny, all under heaven, and many other such unifying concepts came from human based cultural values.

In short, I simply don't understand why we even need to speculate rational reasons for why an alien race would want to conquer or destroy us. Our own history has shown that most conquests were seldom rational.

Alexander the Great didn't march his mobile army eastward to India because they needed resources or for whatever other rational reason. He was directly responsible for the slaughter of hundreds of thousands and the extinction of hundreds of cultures. Did hitler have any rational reason for the conquest of Europe or the Final Solution?

Why are you guys so hung up on rational and logical reasons why an alien race (IFF it exists at all) would want to clobber us? What IFF there is a galactic Alexander the Great marching his great fleet our way right now? I'd like to see you guys try to reason with him then.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Aware Wolf, posted 04-30-2010 12:32 PM Aware Wolf has not yet responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5826
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 56 of 62 (558289)
04-30-2010 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Species8472
04-30-2010 1:16 PM


Re: Fearing fear itself
So, in short, yes call me delusional if you like. I'd rather be careful and nothing happens than not paying attention and be caught off guard.

I'm not saying that you're delusional, I'm saying your comparisons of invaders in human history bears no relevance to the current discussion.

Since all the supposed fears I have pointed out are just a delusion to you, how would you recommend we approach a first contact situation? Welcome them as benefactors to us exactly like how the Vietnamese first greeted the French?

I couldn't begin to answer this question genuinely because there are too many variables. Here you assume that said aliens would be intelligent. Since there is exactly 0 evidence of life outside of this planet, let alone this solar system, there is no basis for even a starting point. It is literally about the same as asking me how I would respond to dolls suddenly coming to life. It has never happened, so what exactly am I supposed to extract from it?

All your comparisons are based off of preconceived notions that you have about aliens and invaders in general. I am trying to get you to understand that, but you keep going on about events in human history that bear no relevance to the subject.


"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Species8472, posted 04-30-2010 1:16 PM Species8472 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Species8472, posted 04-30-2010 3:36 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
Species8472
Junior Member (Idle past 3168 days)
Posts: 29
Joined: 01-13-2010


Message 57 of 62 (558303)
04-30-2010 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Hyroglyphx
04-30-2010 2:56 PM


Re: Fearing fear itself
I couldn't begin to answer this question genuinely because there are too many variables. Here you assume that said aliens would be intelligent. Since there is exactly 0 evidence of life outside of this planet, let alone this solar system, there is no basis for even a starting point. It is literally about the same as asking me how I would respond to dolls suddenly coming to life. It has never happened, so what exactly am I supposed to extract from it?

All your comparisons are based off of preconceived notions that you have about aliens and invaders in general. I am trying to get you to understand that, but you keep going on about events in human history that bear no relevance to the subject.


Ok, let me rephrase my question.

Premises:
1) There exists another intelligent species in the galaxy.
2) Said intelligent species is technologically advance enough for space travel.
3) Said space travel method used by intelligent species other than mankind allows them to travel thousands of light years in relatively short time.
4) Said thousands of light years in relatively short time puts Earth within range.
5) They come in ships and initiate contact with Earth.

Question:
Approach with caution or assume there is absolutely no reason for them to be agressive toward us and therefore just allow them to come down to our world and do whatever?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-30-2010 2:56 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Straggler, posted 04-30-2010 3:39 PM Species8472 has responded
 Message 61 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-01-2010 9:14 AM Species8472 has not yet responded

    
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 58 of 62 (558306)
04-30-2010 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Species8472
04-30-2010 3:36 PM


Re: Fearing fear itself
Approach with caution or assume there is absolutely no reason for them to be agressive toward us and therefore just allow them to come down to our world and do whatever?

If they are technologically advanced enough to be here what is it you suggest we do as the "cautious" option anyway?

Nuke-Em?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Species8472, posted 04-30-2010 3:36 PM Species8472 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Species8472, posted 04-30-2010 3:53 PM Straggler has responded

  
Species8472
Junior Member (Idle past 3168 days)
Posts: 29
Joined: 01-13-2010


Message 59 of 62 (558310)
04-30-2010 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Straggler
04-30-2010 3:39 PM


Re: Fearing fear itself
Straggler writes:

If they are technologically advanced enough to be here what is it you suggest we do as the "cautious" option anyway?


Now, you're just being silly. Just because I'm pointing out the possibility of possibly needing to defend ourselves from alien invasion doesn't mean I know/have all the solutions. Now, you're just using the creationist tactic. Remember all the supposed gaps in the fossil record and how creationists keep using this as their proof of god of the gaps? Every time a transitiional fossil (C) is found that puts it between A and B, the creationist would point out that there are now two more gaps to follow up.

That said, I do have a suggestion. The French were so successful at subjugating IndoChina because we allowed them to. The Vietnamese government allowed them to come in in the first place, allowed them to convert many of our people, and allowed them to even establish military bases. By the time our people realized they were there to enslave us, the country was already lost.

I'd imagine if an alien race comes with a lot of promises and goods to offer, there'd be a whole generation of race traitors ready to do their biddings. We could start from there.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Straggler, posted 04-30-2010 3:39 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Straggler, posted 05-01-2010 6:17 AM Species8472 has not yet responded

    
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 60 of 62 (558407)
05-01-2010 6:17 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Species8472
04-30-2010 3:53 PM


Re: Fearing fear itself
If an alien race that has the technology to undertake interstellar travel arrives on our doorstep and wants to do us harm I think it is fair to say we would be at a rather severe technological disadvantage in terms of trying to stop them. No?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Species8472, posted 04-30-2010 3:53 PM Species8472 has not yet responded

  
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