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Author Topic:   Is faith the answer to cognitive dissonance?
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 166 of 227 (722632)
03-23-2014 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Faith
03-22-2014 1:20 PM


Re: The "honest skeptic" gets no praise from me: Scripture says Believe
Faith writes:
... you seem to have fallen for the EvC debunkery bit that says witness evidence isn't evidence.
It isn't that witness evidence isn't evidence. The question is whether your claimed witnesses were actually witnesses.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Faith, posted 03-22-2014 1:20 PM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 167 of 227 (722635)
03-23-2014 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Faith
03-22-2014 1:20 PM


Why Not?
They think they want to see the wounds that Thomas saw? Why don't they just believe that Thomas saw them? They think they want to see the Red Sea part? Why not just believe Moses and all those who experienced it?
They want to see the Angel Gabriel talking to Mohammed? Why don't they just believe that Mohammed saw him? They want to see the golden plates the Book of Mormon was written on? Why not just believe Joseph Smith?
Because apart from any other consideration, dear Faith, if I followed that particular episteme I would end up as an adherent of every faith, and would probably have to stone myself to death while burning myself alive. The very least we can require for a method of identifying the One True Religion is that it should in fact identify one religion as true, rather than all of them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Faith, posted 03-22-2014 1:20 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Faith, posted 03-23-2014 8:05 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 168 of 227 (722641)
03-23-2014 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Dr Adequate
03-23-2014 6:18 PM


Re: Why Not?
The Bible is clear that multiple witnesses are required to validate any claim -- ABE: well, not any, but extraordinary claims such as the Bible makes /ABE -- as I said, and the Bible provides them abundantly. Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith have no other witnesses than themselves.
ABE: Plus character witnesses against them.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-23-2014 6:18 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-23-2014 10:35 PM Faith has replied
 Message 173 by Dogmafood, posted 03-24-2014 8:00 AM Faith has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 169 of 227 (722649)
03-23-2014 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Faith
03-23-2014 8:05 PM


Re: Why Not?
The Bible is clear that multiple witnesses are required to validate any claim -- ABE: well, not any, but extraordinary claims such as the Bible makes /ABE -- as I said, and the Bible provides them abundantly. Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith have no other witnesses than themselves.
You just make stuff up as you go along, don't you?
The Eleven Witnesses. Here we have some verifiably real people whom we know signed their names and otherwise publicly testified to Smith's story. Compare this with the basis of the rather more important claim in Genesis 1:1. We have that on the authority of an anonymous self-contradictory document which an unevidenced tradition ascribes to a man born 2368 years after the events he's describing, and whose own existence is doubtful --- insofar as he bears many hallmarks of being mythical, such as being able to do magic.
If, then, we use your criterion of multiple witnesses for extraordinary claims, we ought to be more certain of Smith's story about the golden plates than we should be of the claim that God created the heavens and the Earth, which we should categorize as extremely dubious.
ABE: Plus character witnesses against them.
I seem to remember there were character witnesses against Jesus.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Faith, posted 03-23-2014 8:05 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 4:57 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 170 of 227 (722659)
03-24-2014 4:57 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Dr Adequate
03-23-2014 10:35 PM


Re: Why Not?
The principle of multiple witnesses is very clear in the Bible and clearly exemplified in its accounts. So much of Moses' accounts is testified by multiple others there is no reason to doubt it when he gives a singular testimony as well. But deny any particular instance if you like, there are hundreds more that are extremely well attested, about miracles among other things. My original point was about the need for multiple witnesses and the Bible's supplying them, and that remains true.
Mohammed on the other hand has himself alone as witness to his encounter with "Gabriel." And even so I actually don't doubt that he had an encounter with a supernatural entity that called himself Gabriel. However, there is not one thing in the Bible that we are required to believe that is attested only by a private encounter.
All stories I've read about Joseph Smith's finding of the golden tablets have him finding them alone. You produce a document about eleven witnesses but we know they weren't there at the time of the finding and if you just read that document it's highly doubtful that any of them truly saw the tablets anyway:
Despite the rather lucid description given by these men, it appears that their familiarity with the plates is not as it first appears. Did the witnesses actually see physical plates with their naked eyes? Or was this some sort of mystical experience that involved seeing an object that was not really there?
According to the History of the Church (1:52), Smith stated,
In the course of the work of translation, we ascertained that three special witnesses were to be provided by the Lord, to whom He would grant that they should see the plates from which this work (the Book of Mormon) should be translated; and that these witnesses should bear record of the same, as will be found recorded, Book of Mormon, page 581 [Book of Ether, chapter 5, verses 2, 3 and 4, p. 487, edition 1920], also page 86 [2 Nephi, chapter 11, verse 3, p. 73, edition 1920].
As a result, he obtained a revelation from the Lord that can be found in The Doctrine and Covenants 17. It reads:
1 Behold, I say unto you, that you must rely upon my word, which if you do with full purpose of heart, you shall have a view of the plates, and also of the breastplate, the sword of Laban, the Urim and Thummim, which were given to the brother of Jared upon the mount, when he talked with the Lord face to face, and the miraculous directors which were given to Lehi while in the wilderness, on the borders of the Red Sea.
2 And it is by your faith that you shall obtain a view of them, even by that faith which was had by the prophets of old.
3 And after that you have obtained faith, and have seen them with your eyes, you shall testify of them, by the power of God;
4 And this you shall do that my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., may not be destroyed, that I may bring about my righteous purposes unto the children of men in this work.
5 And ye shall testify that you have seen them, even as my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., has seen them; for it is by my power that he has seen them, and it is because he had faith.
Reading these passages, one can’t help but notice that the only way the three men would see the plates at all is if they had faith. While it seems clear that faith was a prerequisite to be allowed to see the plates, can we not also conclude that seeing the plates also took an act of faith? Smith continued his narrative on 54:
Not many days after the above commandment was given, we four, viz., Martin Harris, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery and myself, agreed to retire into the woods, and try to obtain, by fervent and humble prayer, the fulfilment of the promises given in the above revelation-that they should have a view of the plates. We accordingly made choice of a piece of woods convenient to Mr. Whitmer's house, to which we retired, and having knelt down, we began to pray in much faith to Almighty God to bestow upon us a realization of these promises.
According to previous arrangement, I commenced prayer to our Heavenly Father, and was followed by each of the others in succession. We did not at the first trial, however, obtain any answer or manifestation of divine favor in our behalf. We again observed the same order of prayer, each calling on and praying fervently to God in rotation, but with the same result as before.
Upon this, our second failure, Martin Harris proposed that he should withdraw himself from us, believing, as he expressed himself, that his presence was the cause of our not obtaining what we wished for. He accordingly with drew from us, and we knelt down again, and had not been many minutes engaged in prayer, when presently we beheld a light above us in the air, of exceeding brightness; and behold, an angel stood before us. In his hands he held the plates which we had been praying for these to have a view of. He turned over the leaves one by one, so that we could see them, and discern the engravings theron distinctly.
Praying to see the gold plates out in the woods seems rather odd. After all, Smith had already commenced translating the plates. Why not just allow the three men to see the gold record at that location? Why was prayer necessary to see the plates if they were in fact, tangible? Harris’ behavior also seems strange if the plates actually existed. How would his doubt be a detriment to seeing a physical object?
As for character witnesses, if you believe the Pharisees and not Jesus, oh well. And if you believe Joseph Smith and not the many locals who had known him as a con man, oh well. That's your bad choice to make.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-23-2014 10:35 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by saab93f, posted 03-24-2014 7:50 AM Faith has replied
 Message 178 by PaulK, posted 03-24-2014 8:56 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 189 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-24-2014 12:20 PM Faith has replied

  
saab93f
Member (Idle past 1416 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


(1)
Message 171 of 227 (722664)
03-24-2014 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Faith
03-24-2014 4:57 AM


Re: Why Not?
All stories I've read about Joseph Smith's finding of the golden tablets have him finding them alone. You produce a document about eleven witnesses but we know they weren't there at the time of the finding and if you just read that document it's highly doubtful that any of them truly saw the tablets anyway.
I honestly believe (pun intended) that Mormonism alongside scientology is the worst religiosity has to offer. OTOH it is like saying that gonorrhea is the best of the STDs (thanks Jeremy Clarkson).
That aside you will not accept the eleven witnesses to vouch for Joseph Smith but will accept the Mark, Matthew, Luke and John even though they were not eyewutnesses and chronologically even further apart than the Smiths witnesses. Double standards?
How about Moses writing about Genesis when even in the context of the mythology millenia had passed from the events he "told" about. Moses also wrote about his own funeral

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 4:57 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 7:55 AM saab93f has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 172 of 227 (722665)
03-24-2014 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by saab93f
03-24-2014 7:50 AM


Re: Why Not?
Oh but they were eyewitnesses, all the writers of the New Testament except Luke and Paul were eyewitnesses of the events of Jesus' life, and Luke had contacts among all the eyewitnesses and had studied all their claims, and Paul was illuminated by Jesus Himself from heaven.
Nobody says Moses literally scribed all of the Torah, only that the books ascribed to him covered his time, and he probably did write most of it, and we assume he had either oral or written records to work from.
Why do people keep saying such silly obvious things as that Moses couldn't have written about his own death as if nobody had noticed before they came along?.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by saab93f, posted 03-24-2014 7:50 AM saab93f has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by saab93f, posted 03-24-2014 9:19 AM Faith has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 370 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 173 of 227 (722666)
03-24-2014 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Faith
03-23-2014 8:05 PM


Re: Why Not?
The Bible is clear that multiple witnesses are required to validate any claim
I don't know how clear that is. It appears that the standard of evidence in the bible is not so demanding.
quote:
Heb 11;1-3 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Faith, posted 03-23-2014 8:05 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 8:02 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 174 of 227 (722668)
03-24-2014 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Dogmafood
03-24-2014 8:00 AM


Re: Why Not?
It's a Levitical Law that requires two or three witnesses to any claim, and the Bible provides many many more than that to all the major events our faith rests upon.
And by your quoting of passages about faith you seem to have the usual false idea that faith does not require or have evidence. Hardly, our faith is built on the evidence of the witnesses given in the Bible, lots of it. There is no such thing as genuine faith without evidence, and as I already argued back upthread about the incident of Thomas' demanding physical proof, the lesson is that believing what the witnesses had told him would have given him that same evidence he got by actually seeing it, and that's the evidence we all have when we trust the Biblical witnesses.
ABE: Once we have that faith then faith leads us to further knowledge. If Thomas had believed the reports of the disciples who had seen the risen Christ he'd have had that "substance of things unseen" that faith gives us. But things we can't otherwise witness such as the creation of the world and the Flood, we also know by faith.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Dogmafood, posted 03-24-2014 8:00 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Dogmafood, posted 03-24-2014 8:07 AM Faith has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 370 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 175 of 227 (722669)
03-24-2014 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Faith
03-24-2014 8:02 AM


Re: Why Not?
But the quote says that faith itself is the evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 8:02 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 8:15 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 176 of 227 (722670)
03-24-2014 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by Dogmafood
03-24-2014 8:07 AM


Re: Why Not?
I did add an edit to take that into account, but the point is that although there is tons of actual physical evidence described in the Bible (including all kinds of miracles that were witnessed by many, millions in the case of the Exodus from Egypt, hundreds in many other cases) none of us now can have direct knowledge of those events, just as we can't for any other one-time historical event. That's simply the situation with historical events. You have to decide whom to trust about those events and put your trust in their witness accounts. {ABE: Their accounts ARE evidence. What the disciples told Thomas about seeing Jesus WAS evidence that He had risen. He'd have had the same knowledge they had IF HE HAD BELIEVED THEM. See? Same for us. If we believe them then we have that knowledge too. /ABE} Believing in miracles requires faith in the Biblical accounts of the miracles. Once you believe in some of them then you have a platform based on faith for understanding a lot more than those things, so that then faith leads you to all kinds of knowledge through the Bible that is available no other way.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Dogmafood, posted 03-24-2014 8:07 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Dogmafood, posted 03-24-2014 8:47 AM Faith has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 370 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 177 of 227 (722674)
03-24-2014 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Faith
03-24-2014 8:15 AM


Re: Why Not?
That's simply the situation with historical events. You have to decide whom to trust about those events and put your trust in their witness accounts. {ABE: Their accounts ARE evidence.
I would say that their accounts are testimony. If we compare the testimony to any physical evidence that is available we can make a judgement as to it's veracity. If there is no physical evidence and all that you have is the testimony (translated many times) then it is prudent to determine that you can not know for sure.
However, things like physical laws are evidence that some things could not have happened as reported. For example, the walls of Jericho were not felled by trumpets. It is a physical impossibility. This is strong evidence that the testimony is not accurate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 8:15 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 9:14 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 178 of 227 (722676)
03-24-2014 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Faith
03-24-2014 4:57 AM


Testimony of Three Witnesses?
quote:
The principle of multiple witnesses is very clear in the Bible and clearly exemplified in its accounts. So much of Moses' accounts is testified by multiple others there is no reason to doubt it when he gives a singular testimony as well.
Are you REALLY claiming to have the testimony of multiple witnesses to lsignificant parts of the Pentateuch? If so, I want to see them. If not, then you're not really meeting the standard required by the Levitical Law.
quote:
But deny any particular instance if you like, there are hundreds more that are extremely well attested, about miracles among other things. My original point was about the need for multiple witnesses and the Bible's supplying them, and that remains true
That doesn't seem to be true either. Leaving aside the Gospels (since you ought to know that the authorship is traditional and not well supported by evidence) how many examples can you cite ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 4:57 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 179 of 227 (722681)
03-24-2014 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by Dogmafood
03-24-2014 8:47 AM


Re: Why Not?
I would say that their accounts are testimony. If we compare the testimony to any physical evidence that is available we can make a judgement as to it's veracity. If there is no physical evidence and all that you have is the testimony (translated many times) then it is prudent to determine that you can not know for sure.
"Testimony" is an OK word, I guess, as long as it means the same thing as eyewitness account.
You do of course have a problem in the case of one-time miracles in that there is no other evidence for such things. It's the witness accounts or nothing, unless God has mercy on you and gives you a special experience of a miracle. If He doesn't, then you have to decide if the witnesses are credible or not. If you think they are not you will simply never believe in the Biblical miracles.
And by the way, the translations are quite reliable, many having been translated directly from the Hebrew and Greek; but I'd recommend the KJV because it's based on the best Greek manuscripts.
However, things like physical laws are evidence that some things could not have happened as reported.
A miracle by definition is the suspension of physical laws. God being God who put the laws in place can certainly override them if He so desires. The miracles in the Bible are in fact very few, but a real miracle IS a real miracle. The pillars of cloud and fire that guided the Israelites across the wilderness, are certainly miracles, and so was the parting of the Red Sea. Gideon's fleece involved a miracle. If you refuse to believe the witnesses to these things because they violate normal physical laws, then you've simply cut yourself off from the possibility of believing in miracles.
For example, the walls of Jericho were not felled by trumpets. It is a physical impossibility. This is strong evidence that the testimony is not accurate.
Pretty weak evidence if you ask me. The parting of the Red Sea is also a physical impossibility according to physical law. So is an axe head floating on water, which is a miracle Elisha performed, also the miraculous supply of oil he provided for the widow; so is the multiplication of a few fish and loaves of bread by which Jesus fed thousands of people, plus the turning of water into wine among many other things Jesus did. Such miracles are given as evidence that we are actually talking about the real omnipotent God. If you refuse to believe the witnesses to those things that the Bible gives us, because you refuse to allow Him to suspend His own natural laws, then you've simply made it impossible to ever believe in Him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Dogmafood, posted 03-24-2014 8:47 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Dogmafood, posted 03-24-2014 9:27 AM Faith has replied

  
saab93f
Member (Idle past 1416 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


Message 180 of 227 (722682)
03-24-2014 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Faith
03-24-2014 7:55 AM


Re: Why Not?
Oh but they were eyewitnesses, all the writers of the New Testament except Luke and Paul were eyewitnesses of the events of Jesus' life, and Luke had contacts among all the eyewitnesses and had studied all their claims, and Paul was illuminated by Jesus Himself from heaven.
Nobody says Moses literally scribed all of the Torah, only that the books ascribed to him covered his time, and he probably did write most of it, and we assume he had either oral or written records to work from.
You have a funny way of describing what an eyewitness is. First of all, eyewitness testimonies are the most unreliable testimonies of just about them all.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/...cle/do-the-eyes-have-it
By your standards I could be a reliable witness to the life and actions of...Harry Reid...since Ive lived at the same time and Ive read and heard of him though Ive never met the person.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 7:55 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 9:32 AM saab93f has replied

  
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