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Author Topic:   Noah's ark found ?!?
Flyer75
Member (Idle past 713 days)
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


Message 46 of 88 (557947)
04-28-2010 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Taz
04-28-2010 8:56 AM


Re: Gerrit Aalten
Taz writes:

Christians need to stop supporting these cranks. People like Ron Watt and now apparently these christian archaeologists are doing more damage than not. They're driving all the honest people away from christianity.

I'll give ya a 5 on this one Taz. In fact, that was the point of Todd Woods blog I just posted. What a waste of money! For what? As the blog said, why aren't these "christians" donating this money to some worthwhile cause like a homeless shelter or a kids camp or somthing?


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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 112 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 47 of 88 (557949)
04-28-2010 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Flyer75
04-28-2010 6:35 PM


Re: Gerrit Aalten
why aren't these "christians" donating this money to some worthwhile cause like a homeless shelter or a kids camp or somthing?

Or at least researching ID.


"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Others—for example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einstein—considered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan

"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu


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Huntard
Member (Idle past 585 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 48 of 88 (557964)
04-29-2010 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Flyer75
04-28-2010 6:27 PM


Re: Reported to be a fake
There is one tiny little thing I don't like about this blogpost. That's his mention of "Piltdown man" as a hoax done by evolutionists. It wasn't, it was perpetrated on them, not by them. And anyway, who were the ones who finally told the world it was a fake, that wasn't the creationists,but the evolutionists themselves. Why tell the world it was a hoax when it's supposed intention was to fool the world into believing evolution, that makes no sense.

Anyway, carry on.


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Peg
Member (Idle past 3220 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 49 of 88 (557965)
04-29-2010 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by hooah212002
04-27-2010 6:57 PM


hooah212002 writes:

There's a thread out there, Evidence for the Biblical Record, that as of yet, stands open. You are welcome to show us this "evidence". Peg is the only theist so far that even tried to give it a go (even though she failed miserably, she tried).

LOL

If any of the evidence i posted failed to convince the skeptics, yes i failed.


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Peg
Member (Idle past 3220 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 50 of 88 (557967)
04-29-2010 2:30 AM


about this find, its certainly interesting and im sure if its anything significant we'll hear more about it when, and if, they can excavate it properly. I wouldnt go so far as to claim its the ark just yet...they probably could have done a bit more digging before making that claim.

I cant imagine excavation will be an easy process though considering its location and the fact that its mostly frozen....does anyone know the difficulties involved in such a dig???


Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 396 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 51 of 88 (558010)
04-29-2010 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Peg
04-29-2010 2:30 AM


Difficulties in digging...
...does anyone know the difficulties involved in such a dig???

Yes. Doing such a dig in the US would be difficult. At minimum you are looking at a lot of money and effort. I've run several digs where we had to pack everything in on mules--just a few miles--and that gets to be a logistical nightmare pretty quickly. And that's before you try to dig into frozen ground on the top of a mountain miles from anything.

Also, evangelicals are not the ones to do such a dig. You saw how easily they were persuaded that they had the "truth" and how easily they fooled themselves. Such a dig needs to be done by professionals who know what they are doing and who are skeptics.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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misha
Member (Idle past 2918 days)
Posts: 69
From: Atlanta
Joined: 02-04-2010


Message 52 of 88 (558018)
04-29-2010 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by New Cat's Eye
04-28-2010 12:13 PM


Re: Reported to be a fake
The Chinese and Turks were in on it.

Here's the full quote from Randall Price:

I was the archaeologist with the Chinese expedition in the summer of 2008 and was given photos of what they now are reporting to be the inside of the Ark. I and my partners invested $100,000 in this expedition (described below) which they have retained, despite their promise and our requests to return it, since it was not used for the expedition. The information given below is my opinion based on what I have seen and heard (from others who claim to have been eyewitnesses or know the exact details).

To make a long story short: this is all reported to be a fake. The photos were reputed to have been taken off site near the Black Sea, but the film footage the Chinese now have was shot on location on Mt. Ararat. In the late summer of 2008 ten Kurdish workers hired by Parasut, the guide used by the Chinese, are said to have planted large wood beams taken from an old structure in the Black Sea area (where the photos were originally taken) at the Mt. Ararat site. In the winter of 2008 a Chinese climber taken by Parasut's men to the site saw the wood, but couldn't get inside because of the severe weather conditions. During the summer of 2009 more wood was planted inside a cave at the site. The Chinese team went in the late summer of 2009 (I was there at the time and knew about the hoax) and was shown the cave with the wood and made their film. As I said, I have the photos of the inside of the so-called Ark (that show cobwebs in the corners of rafters - something just not possible in these conditions) and our Kurdish partner in Dogubabyazit (the village at the foot of Mt. Ararat) has all of the facts about the location, the men who planted the wood, and even the truck that transported it.


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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5829
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 53 of 88 (558021)
04-29-2010 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by PsychMJC
04-27-2010 7:01 PM


Re: Think you're wrong on this one..
It would certainly help to persuade me. I bet it would bring thousands back to the church.

I don't see why. There have long been accounts of a large flood in the Mesopotamian and Anatolian regions that have all been confirmed by modern science. The Black Sea used to be the Black Lake until the Bosporous burst open sending a deluge of sea water, flooding that enormous region.

What that doesn't mean is that this confirms God, nor does it confirm that every animal on the planet was housed on an ark, nor does it prove that it actually is the Ark described in the bible, or anything else.

A huge flood happened. It did. And many ancients reported it and added their own mystical stories to explain how and why it happened. It does not mean that the legend is therefore true on all accounts.

Like most folklore, interwined between woven fabrics of pure bullshit is smatterings of truth. This should be no exception.

What likely could have happened is that after the flood occured (which was localized and not global) is that a bunch of people saw a large ship resting on the mountain. People in that area then wrote about it (look in Sumerian lore) and it spread the word. Through word of mouth the story then synthesized all over the Middle East, Asia Minor, and the Mediteranean. They each put their own little spin on it.

So, even if it is the ark, it doesn't mean that the stories about the The Ark are necessarily true. Think about it.


"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Flyer75
Member (Idle past 713 days)
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


Message 54 of 88 (558034)
04-29-2010 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Coyote
04-29-2010 10:37 AM


Re: Difficulties in digging...
So coyote, professionals are ALWAYS right??? I agree, it should be professionals but that doesn't bring forth infallible evidence, for either side....anyways, the creation side did their job in scrutinizing the find and have made no bones that it's a hoax...I guess they all could have collaborated together and proclaimed it to be the truth but they didn't.

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Flyer75
Member (Idle past 713 days)
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


Message 55 of 88 (558036)
04-29-2010 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Hyroglyphx
04-29-2010 11:36 AM


Re: Think you're wrong on this one..
Hyroglyphx,

I understand your point but I think your being a little unfair to the significance of the find, if it ever happens (I don't think it ever will). It's not fair to say that someone could have found a boat on Ararat, then wrote a story about it without being able to produce the evidence for this story outside the Bible, mainly the specifics such as the possible dimensions of the boat and the fact that was found on Ararat. Creationists get hammered on this evidence point all the time so why can you use it?

But, I do agree, even if the ark is found and is to be in complete size and shape as described on Ararat, it doesn't necessarily PROVE God. All it would be is another cooberating piece of evidence to go along with the others that have been found support at least the historicity of the OT and the Bible in general, nothing more.

Gazillions of people in history have been converted to Christianity without the visual of the ark, or the "holy grail", or any other piece of ancient artifact. I mean, can you imagine if the ark is ever found and it's even remotely proven to be close to the actual ark the pilgrimages of idiots that will throng to this thing to literally worship it like it's God itself?? I'm sure that's what God intended for the ark.


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 Message 53 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-29-2010 11:36 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 56 of 88 (558037)
04-29-2010 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Flyer75
04-29-2010 1:50 PM


Re: Difficulties in digging...
So coyote, professionals are ALWAYS right??? I agree, it should be professionals but that doesn't bring forth infallible evidence, for either side....anyways, the creation side did their job in scrutinizing the find and have made no bones that it's a hoax...I guess they all could have collaborated together and proclaimed it to be the truth but they didn't.

As with any group, "the creationist side" is not a single homogeneous group.

However, while professionals can be wrong, they at least back up their conclusions with evidence and allow their findings to be checked by other parties.

Amateurs are usually wrong, simply because they haven't the faintest clue what they're looking at. Would you rather have John Smith who works at the diner up the road diagnose your medical condition, or would you rather have a doctor do it? Would you trust the data security and computers of your large business to your dentist, or would you hire an IT professional?

We trust trained archeologists when they comment on archeology more than, say, a group of "amateur" archeologists who think they're akin to Indiana Jones and the Lost Ark, because that training involves learning proven techniques and valid forms of reasoning to make reasonable conclusions. I'm sorry, but being armed with the Bible, wishful thinking, and what you've seen on TV doesn't qualify one to search for Noah's Ark any more than I'm qualified to investigate a murder just because I've watched a bunch of CSI.

Nobody claims professionals are infallible. They're just a lot less fallible with respect to their own field than people who lack their years of training and expertise.


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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5829
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 57 of 88 (558038)
04-29-2010 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Flyer75
04-29-2010 2:05 PM


Re: Think you're wrong on this one..
I understand your point but I think your being a little unfair to the significance of the find

I don't mean to diminish the historical or archaeological significance of it. My statement was directly in context with the poster alluding to believing in the bible because of it. I am simply saying that even if it is The Ark, it doesn't mean that the entirety of the bible (or even the story of the Ark) is therefore confirmed. I'm just making the distinction, not diminishing its total significance.

Creationists get hammered on this evidence point all the time so why can you use it?

I wouldn't expect the Ark to survive over 4,000 years anyway, although a low oxygen, cold environment would be a great place to preserve wood (which can be found at 11,000 feet).

But, I do agree, even if the ark is found and is to be in complete size and shape as described on Ararat, it doesn't necessarily PROVE God. All it would be is another cooberating piece of evidence to go along with the others that have been found support at least the historicity of the OT and the Bible in general, nothing more.

The bible is an historical document that has proven a lot of itself true. I don't care how many foam-at-the-mouth atheists say otherwise. That being said, not all of it is true.

I mean, can you imagine if the ark is ever found and it's even remotely proven to be close to the actual ark the pilgrimages of idiots that will throng to this thing to literally worship it like it's God itself??

Very true. May they all die of hypothermia... I'm kidding!


"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

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AnswersInGenitals
Member
Posts: 519
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 58 of 88 (558039)
04-29-2010 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by slevesque
04-27-2010 4:33 PM


Proof of the one true religion!
2- If it really turns out to be what they say it is, what are the implications ?

If this discovery and its dating do turn out to be of a giant 4800 year old ark lodged atop Mt. Ararat, it will validate once and for all and beyond any shadow of a doubt the Sumerian epic of Gilgamesh and that this vessel was built by Gilgamesh's uncle, Utnapishtim (for whom I named my fist born son). It will prove conclusively that the Sumerian pantheon of gods are the true gods who created and rule the universe. We will see Christian creationists the world over fall to their knees as they beg the Goddess Nenlil for forgiveness.

A great wailing will be heard throughout the land (except in Japan, where it will be a great whaling that is heard) as the kneeling creationists tear out their hair and rend their clothes (except for Buzsaw, who will tear out the hair and rend the clothes of the supplicant kneeling next to him) as they cast off their false religion, tear down their cursed churches and cathedrals and return to the beloved Gods antiquity.

(Or not.)


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Flyer75
Member (Idle past 713 days)
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


Message 59 of 88 (558041)
04-29-2010 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Rahvin
04-29-2010 2:11 PM


Re: Difficulties in digging...
Rahvin,

You're right...there's not much to disagree with in your post

I was just giving Coyote a little hard time there but also trying to reiterate that this wasn't some creationist conspiracy theory. Unfortunately some amateur evangelical Chinese treasure hunters got completely dupped by the locals.


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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 60 of 88 (558042)
04-29-2010 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Hyroglyphx
04-29-2010 2:21 PM


Re: Think you're wrong on this one..
The bible is an historical document that has proven a lot of itself true. I don't care how many foam-at-the-mouth atheists say otherwise. That being said, not all of it is true.

Very few of us "foam-at-the-mouth Atehists" would claim that teh Bible contains zero historical fact.

It makes too many references to actual nations, real geography, verifiable historical events, and real rulers to say that it has absolutely zero value of a historical nature.

However, those who are [i]rational,[i] Atheist or otherwise, also tend to focus on the fact that containing some historical validity does not in any way corroborate other, unverified claims. Just because Jericho actually existed doesn't mean that the Biblical story of its destruction was in any way accurate, any more than the existence of Troy makes the Illiad an accurate historical document.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-29-2010 2:21 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
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