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Author Topic:   Fossils, strata and the flood
Kitsune
Member (Idle past 3540 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 91 of 163 (558559)
05-02-2010 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Faith
05-02-2010 9:12 AM


Honeydarling, you're ignoring just about every point everyone has made on this thread. The only thing you said in reply to Message 84 is that Coragyps don't know what he's talkin' about. This is, I think, the most blatant example I've ever seen of a creationist talking nonsense about something they don't understand, then claiming they presented some devastating evidence at some undisclosed time that everyone missed or couldn't deal with.

You're a funny gal.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 05-02-2010 9:12 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 684 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 92 of 163 (558560)
05-02-2010 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Kitsune
05-02-2010 9:01 AM


Are you seriously saying that you think it is supposed to magically appear out of nowhere, collect for millions of years and then suddenly get eroded?

No, dear, what I am saying is that if geological theory is correct that is what MUST have happened. They don't think it happened but it is what MUST have happened if it all built up slowly over billions of years. It is what MUST have happened if you actually LOOK at the depth of the strata all over the earth, their neat horizontality and parallel form, and then THINK for a change. That is, it just went on a-building until "recent" time when suddenly all the tectonic and weathering forces happened. Never happened before. IF their theory is correct.

Just LOOK and THINK. Stop yammering and LOOK and THINK.

But of course it isn't correct. It COULDN'T have happened that way.

The strata COULDN'T have taken billions of years to form. The only thing that accounts for the obvious neatness of the strata to such a depth is a worldwide Flood.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 684 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 93 of 163 (558561)
05-02-2010 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Kitsune
05-02-2010 9:21 AM


Why don't you THINK for a change, honey darlin?

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Admin
Director
Posts: 12793
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 94 of 163 (558563)
05-02-2010 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Faith
05-02-2010 9:23 AM


Faith Suspended for 24 Hours
Hi Faith,

This was your entire message:

Faith writes:

Why don't you THINK for a change, honey darlin?

I've sent you PM's, I've posted general notes to the threads, and I even posted a message to you in one of your threads. I need you to work toward not allowing threads to descend into bickering and to keep the focus on the topic. I can't think of anything else I can do but to suspend you for 24 hours. See you tomorrow.

Edited by Admin, : Grammar.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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lyx2no
Member (Idle past 3956 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 95 of 163 (558564)
05-02-2010 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Faith
05-02-2010 9:08 AM


California: Flood Free Zone
San Andreas Fault
NO STRATA

Did the flood not make it to California, Faith?

It is known there are geologic formations that do not have strata. That does not imply that there are not geological formations that do have strata. You need to deal with the many images from Mars that do have strata. That can not be done by showing us images from Mars that do not have strata.


"Mom! Ban Ki-moon made a non-binding resolution at me." — Mohmoud Ahmadinejad

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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 96 of 163 (558565)
05-02-2010 9:58 AM


Faith:

While you are off, give a little thought to this: are sediments accumulating today in an identical fashion out by the oil blowout near Louisiana as they are in Iowa? Doesn't it seem possible that there were places being eroded in Iowa and other places collecting those erosional products, off Louisiana, a thousand years ago? And if so, why not some different places eroding and collecting a million years ago? A billion?


"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

  
Apothecus
Member (Idle past 1650 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 97 of 163 (558567)
05-02-2010 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Faith
05-02-2010 9:02 AM


Re: Flood evidence is everywhere you look
There's nothing to dodge, dear. The obvious glaringly conspicuous point I'm making about how the strata had to have been formed makes all such questions irrelevant.

Aaaaannnd...dodge #16.

You've demonstrated my point on your own better than I ever could, Faith.

Have a good one.


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 644 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 98 of 163 (558579)
05-02-2010 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Flyer75
05-01-2010 5:02 PM


Re: AIG Paper misleading hooey (the old shell game?)
Hi Flyer75, sorry for the delay - yesterday was too nice to spend indoors.

I have zero clue what the age or lifespan of a shell could be. Is that what we are referring to here or is it something else? If it is actual age, why could there NOT be more then one or more generations found together from one major event?

There are two basic issues here: the age of the shells when fossilized and whether mature shells on mountains are evidence of a flood.

The Age of the Shells

Dr. John Whitmore, in his article Should Fragile Shells Be Common in the Fossil Record? states:

quote:
In modern oceans, shells gradually dissolve in sea water or are consumed by other organisms. Experiments have shown that many shells, especially thin and fragile ones, disappear completely in a short period of time.
...
One explanation that they did not consider, that would readily explain their results, is the catastrophic formation of much of the fossil record. The Flood would have indiscriminately buried both fragile and durable material together.

Curiously, the problem Dr. John Whitmore ignores, is that EITHER:

  1. IF there was one and only one burial of the shells (during this flood event) to make the fossils, THEN they should all be less than the age where they dissolve or are consumed, OR, conversely
  2. IF there were multiple burials, THEN the shells being buried, uncovered and buried again, are not evidence that a single event (global or otherwise) occurred, rather they are evidence of multiple independent burials of unknown degree , extent and scope, and unknown time (other than the age of the shells) between such events.

Dr. John Whitmore's simplistic concept does not explain the different ages of the shells prior to burial that are much too old ("10s, 100s, or even 1000s of years old").

The actual evidence shows that shells are of many different ages, often much older than they should be according to the claim that all such shells are "dissolve in sea water or are consumed by other organisms" and that, especially in the case of fragile shells, this normally occurs in less than a year unless the shells are buried and uncovered and buried again. Therefore multiple independent burials occurred. The simple fact of burial does not tell us the degree, scope or extent of the burial in question, as it does not distinguish one event from the other, and thus it is not evidence that it was global rather than local.

Further, if there are more than one burial event then ONE at least must be local, and if EACH ONE is indistinguishable from the others, THEN they are all likely events of similar degree, scope or extent.

Multiple local burial events explain the evidence much better than one single burial event.

Are mature shells on mountains evidence of a flood?

The noachin myth says the flood lasted less than 1 year, correct? So any evidence for the flood could only occur during that period of time.

The problem once again is that EITHER:

  1. IF the land that has fossils was covered by water one and only one time (during this flood event), THEN the shells etc could only grow during the period of the flood, and therefore could not be more than 1 year old (note that most of the sessile shell organisms have a larval stage of up to 1 year before they settle to the bottom and attach themselves and start to grow a shell), OR, conversely
  2. IF the land that has fossils was covered by water multiple times, THEN the shells are not evidence that a single event (global or otherwise) occurred, rather they are evidence of multiple underwater periods, periods of unknown duration (other than the ages of the shells and development of the ecology), and of unknown degree , extent and scope, of time between such events.

Again, the actual evidence shows that shells of sessile organisms much older than 1 year occur in multiple layers, on mountain after mountain (including Everest). These fossils all show that the organisms involved lived for much more than 1 year, and that generation after generation of such organisms lived in a mature fully developed ecology. The evidence shows that this occurred multiple times in many different locations. Therefore they are evidence that each location was underwater for hundreds to thousands of years, at several different times.

Further, if there are different numbers (all more than one)of underwater events in different locations, then ONE at least must be local, and if EACH ONE is indistinguishable from the others, THEN they are all likely events of similar degree, scope or extent.

Multiple eon long duration underwater events explain the evidence much better than one single short year underwater event.

Conclusions

The evidence shows multiple burials has resulted in shells of different ages being fossilized, including shells that are much older than would occur if they were not buried.

A single flood of 1 year or less duration does not explain the evidence of shells that are much older than would occur if they were not buried.

The evidence shows multiple layers of mature ecosystems along with shells of sessile organisms that are much older than 1 year old, and that they grew over periods of many generations, for hundreds to thousands of years duration.

A single flood of 1 year or less duration does not explain the evidence of generations of shell growth, with individual shells that are much older than could occur in 1 year in each generation.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2209
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 99 of 163 (558583)
05-02-2010 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
05-02-2010 8:39 AM


FYI the image of the Valles Marines isn't an actual photo but a CGI rendering of the topographical data collected by the Mars Global Surveyor. There is no reason to expect it to show any strata that may or may not be there.


It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 291 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 100 of 163 (558585)
05-02-2010 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Faith
05-02-2010 9:22 AM


It is what MUST have happened if you actually LOOK at the depth of the strata all over the earth, their neat horizontality and parallel form, and then THINK for a change.

But this is not what the rocks look like.

This is what I was talking about. You are not merely providing a failed explanation for what the rocks actually look like, you are providing a failed explanation for what you imagine that the rocks look like in the fantasy world in your head.

And then you have the gall to appeal to us, in capital letters, to "LOOK" at the rocks. Hey, Faith, there are people who've spent their whole adult lifetimes LOOKing at the rocks. Not at your fantasies about rocks, but at the actual rocks.

They're called geologists. You wanna guess how wrong they think you are?


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Percy
Member
Posts: 20770
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 101 of 163 (558587)
05-02-2010 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Faith
05-02-2010 9:22 AM


Faith writes:

It is what MUST have happened if you actually LOOK at the depth of the strata all over the earth, their neat horizontality and parallel form, and then THINK for a change.

Relative to your belief that strata all over the Earth exhibit "neat horizontality and parallel form," here are some images. Click on them to enlarge.

First, just to make sure you understand there's no claim that there's no such thing as horizontal and neatly parallel strata, here's an image of strata from the Grand Canyon. Obviously these strata are largely undisturbed by tectonic forces:

Now here are some images of strata that do not exhibit "neat horizontality and parallel form" and that have been greatly affected by tectonic forces like uplift, faulting, shearing and so forth:

Perhaps we could discuss this picture evidence and its implications for the viability of flood geology.

--Percy


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Kitsune
Member (Idle past 3540 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 102 of 163 (558588)
05-02-2010 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Dr Adequate
05-02-2010 4:47 PM


The following is not possible if the world is 6000 years old and all strata were deposited by one catastrophic flood.

It is also not possible if all strata were gradually deposited and not eroded or metamorphosed until the sudden recent carving of canyons.

IMO another explanation is required. I propose geology.

(ABE) Percy, beat me to it

Edited by Kitsune, : No reason given.

Edited by Kitsune, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 291 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 103 of 163 (558591)
05-02-2010 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Percy
05-02-2010 5:26 PM


First, just to make sure you understand there's no claim that there's no such thing as horizontal and neatly parallel strata, here's an image of strata from the Grand Canyon.

Actually, they're not really horizontal, just nearly horizontal, and what you're looking at is more complicated and interesting than you think it is.

So, yeah, I (in association with every geologist in the world) claim that those are not actually horizontal strata laid down in succession one after the other.


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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 291 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 104 of 163 (558592)
05-02-2010 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Kitsune
05-02-2010 5:29 PM


Great picture. Says it all really, doesn't it?

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 644 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 105 of 163 (558594)
05-02-2010 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Dr Adequate
05-02-2010 6:27 PM


Another good one is Ayers Rock

Which also shows wind erosion patterns similar to those seen in the Grand Canyon upper tiers.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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