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Author Topic:   Evolution of complexity/information
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 38 of 254 (123850)
07-11-2004 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Hangdawg13
07-11-2004 11:44 PM


Re: Increase
hangdog writes:
Well, it seems to me like evolutionists should bear the burden of proving that organisms have become overall more complex, as their entire theory hinges on this.
False on two counts.
First off you are the one talking about an increase, therefore you need to be able to quantify it or you are just using a "gut" feeling that has no rational or logical basis. When you make a statement it is up to you to back it up.
Second, evolution does not "hinge" on organisms becomeing "more complex" -- it hinges on organisms surviving to breed another generation. Many times an organism will evolve a feature that later descendants loose in subsequent evolution, and sometimes that feature evolves again. Obviously if some feature is evolving in and out of existence then one version or the other cannot be more complex, nor does it run counter to evolution (it certainly puts a wrench in any concept of intelligent design though eh? -- like make up your mind already ... ).

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Hangdawg13, posted 07-11-2004 11:44 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 62 of 254 (124149)
07-12-2004 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Saviourmachine
07-12-2004 3:04 PM


Not convinced
I'm not convinced that evolution is always accompanied by increased complexity. Often there seem to be steps "up" mount improbable followed by steps "down" before a different "up" is tried.
Walking sticks getting wings, losing them, getting them again, for example. In each case the surviving organism was better fit for the selection process, yet each step cannot be an increase in complexity when vacillating with such indecision (which is also an argument against the process being designed by intelligence).
Does this mean that an overall trend is necessarily "up" or that this is just an inference dictated by human {species} ego?
Would a world of telepathic amoebas be more or less complex?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Saviourmachine, posted 07-12-2004 3:04 PM Saviourmachine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Saviourmachine, posted 07-13-2004 10:20 AM RAZD has replied
 Message 68 by Hangdawg13, posted 07-13-2004 1:26 PM RAZD has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 208 of 254 (131006)
08-06-2004 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Saviourmachine
07-13-2004 10:20 AM


Re: Not convinced
Sorry to take so long to get back to this (I've been away)
my point was more that increased complexity does not necessarily result in a better design, in many cases something can be simplified to gain an advantage -- less weight, more efficient use of energy.
SaviorMachine writes:
A very weak definition of complexity, such as the size of genome, would be sufficient to explain an increase in the maximum complexity of all species under evolution.
size of genome is not enough if one has many repeated sequences and another has more varied sequences, and this gets into information theory to define the complexity based on "compressed information" similar to making a ZIP file of the code and the larger 'zipped genome' would be more complex.
would telepathic amoebas be more complex than non-telepathic ones? depends on whether the result would be more of a 'hive mind' being than an assembly of individuals continuing to do same old tasks without specialization, for in one sense all multicell organisms are an assembly of single cell 'individuals' working together telepathically: the complexity comes from specialization.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Saviourmachine, posted 07-13-2004 10:20 AM Saviourmachine has not replied

  
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