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Author Topic:   Evolution of complexity/information
petersmall
Inactive Member


Message 187 of 254 (126050)
07-20-2004 7:09 PM


Complexity in the brain
Hello everyone,
My interest in biological systems is from the point of view of studying them to find mechanisms that can be applied to information technology (I think the term BIOMIMETICS is the technical word used to describe this).
I've joined the forum today, hoping to find people interested in neuroscience issues. In particular I'm interested in brain imaging experiments, especially if they relate to finding evidence of chaotic networks and attractor basins.
Over the past four years, I've been playing around with agent systems based upon stigmergy (the name given to the phenomenon whereby communication is via an environment - i.e., ant pheromone trails). This led me into the fields of dynamic systems, complexity and chaos.
About a year ago, I suddenly woke up to the fact that neuroscience is fast forwarding because of the discoveries being made with brain imaging techniques. The work of Walter Freeman seems to suggest that many of the neural processing networks in the brain are based upon chaotic networks and attractor basins. This piqued my interest and I've been trying to learn as much about it as I can.
I've brought this subject up in a couple of system control forums I belong to, but I'm afraid that the general opinion there is that this is some kind of exotic nonsense that doesn't have much credibility. Is this the view here in this forum?
I wrote a paper to try to explain how this might be applied to knowledge management, but, so far, it's gone down like a lead balloon.
Cross culture communication
Is there anyone in this forum who empathizes with this approach?

Peter Small
Author of: Lingo
Sorcery, Magical A-Life
Avatars, The
Entrepreneurial Web,
The Ultimate Game of
Strategy and Web
Presence
http://www.stigmergicsystems.com

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by CK, posted 07-20-2004 7:20 PM petersmall has replied

  
petersmall
Inactive Member


Message 190 of 254 (126057)
07-20-2004 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by CK
07-20-2004 7:20 PM


Re: Complexity in the brain
Sorry about it being off topic.
I've reposted under new topic proposals
BTW Knowledge Management is a multi billion dollar a year industry. They may be surprised to hear that the subject is nonsense.

Peter Small
Author of: Lingo
Sorcery, Magical A-Life
Avatars, The
Entrepreneurial Web,
The Ultimate Game of
Strategy and Web
Presence
http://www.stigmergicsystems.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by CK, posted 07-20-2004 7:20 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by CK, posted 07-20-2004 7:39 PM petersmall has not replied
 Message 195 by sidelined, posted 07-21-2004 8:23 AM petersmall has replied

  
petersmall
Inactive Member


Message 194 of 254 (126214)
07-21-2004 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by CK
07-20-2004 7:20 PM


Re: Complexity in the brain
Charles Knight writes:
I have examined 100s of "knowledge management" systems, every single one had been an information management system. The idea of managing the knowledge of individuals is just daft.
You are playing semantic games with me Charles. In fact I'm perfectly in agreement with you that every single "Knowledge management" system seems to be an "Information Management" system. But, I use knowledge management in the sense that you define it
Charles Knight writes:
I don't believe knowledge can be managed. Knowledge Management is a poor term, but we are stuck with it, I suppose. "Knowledge Focus" or "Knowledge Creation" (Nonaka) are better terms, because they describe a mindset, which sees knowledge as activity not an object. A is a human vision, not a technological one.1
You should read articles before you make judgements about what people say in them
It is this distinction that took me away from conventional ideas about knowledge/information management to look at how information and knowledge is handled by the human brain. It then becomes apparent that knowledge is something quite different to information and is a unique experience for every different person.
This leads into trying to understand how people perceive and absorb information, which in turns leads to theories of complexity and chaos because it is by such means that people process information in the brain in order to turn it into personal knowledge. A quote from my paper reads
Brain imaging techniques show this complexity in action. And, it reveals much more. It shows how emotional moods, hormone levels, genetic variation, pharmaceutical drugs and a host of other factors can greatly influence this brain activity. It shows how different people will interpret and react differently to the same information. It shows how people interpret and react differently to the same information at different times according to mood, context and situation.
Ramifications for knowledge management
This knowledge, of the physical activity in the brain as it perceives and processing information, has profound ramifications for knowledge management systems. It gives substance to the wealth of empirical evidence that people differ markedly in how they understand information and the knowledge they gain from it. An insightful, inspirational document to one person may seem a nonsensical collection of buzzwords to another. Contradictory conclusions can be drawn from the same tracts of text when read by people who have different moods or have different background experiences.
Given this situation, who can be relied on to evaluate the content of a paper? Whose views are best, when it comes to classification and categorization?
The problems are compounded by the knowledge that the brain doesn't absorb information in a literal sense. Brain imaging has shown that all inputs to the brain are lost during the neural processing procedures. The brain constructs its own version of the information it receives, using elements drawn from memory to build selected elements of the information it perceives into its own unique conceptual framework.
This can be likened to an artist showing somebody a picture they have drawn and then for that person to cut it up into pieces and add some of the pieces to a picture they have created themselves.
The more that is learned about how the brain processes information the less likely it seems that this knowledge can be of much use in creating a computer system that can deal with information intelligently. But, this begs the question, "How does the brain deal intelligently with the information it is receiving?".
This conclusion seems to be much the same as you came to in reading 100 papers on knowledge management - only I haven't stopped there. I've pursued the question of how the brain deals with information intelligently.
Perhaps you should read my paper before commenting further. You'll find it is actually a criticism of current beliefs in knowledge management (which is why I mentioned that it went down like a lead balloon).
Cross culture communication

Peter Small
Author of: Lingo
Sorcery, Magical A-Life
Avatars, The
Entrepreneurial Web,
The Ultimate Game of
Strategy and Web
Presence
http://www.stigmergicsystems.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by CK, posted 07-20-2004 7:20 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by CK, posted 07-21-2004 11:41 AM petersmall has not replied
 Message 204 by contracycle, posted 07-22-2004 8:47 AM petersmall has replied

  
petersmall
Inactive Member


Message 197 of 254 (126222)
07-21-2004 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by jar
07-20-2004 7:47 PM


Re: Strawman: Complexity between non-ancestors
Jar writes:
yet after nearly 200 posts, we still have no idea of what either Complexity or Information are.
We have no way to know if complexity is greater today than it was during the Cambrian era, or Cretaceous.
Without both good definitions that we all agree upon, and some agreed method to measure and quantify, where the hell is this going?
Trying to understand complexity and give it a value has no meaning. It is the equivalent to asking, "How many infinities are there in infinity?".
Complexity is a description of a system and the implication is that it is too complex to measure or understand. But, complexity theories aren't about measuring or understanding complexity, they are about making use of the fact that complex systems, however complex, settle into steady states. This is because they always tend towards states of minimum energy.
This is somewhat analogous to the way water, under the influence of gravity, always runs down hill (towards a state of minimum potential energy).
Just as water might get trapped into false minimums (dips in the ground), complex systems can become trapped in steady states known as "attractor basins". It is this phenomenon that makes complexity and chaos theories so valuable, because a system doesn't take up a state randomly from all possible states once it is disturbed - it takes up one of only a limited number of states dependent upon initial conditions.
It is this phenomenon that is used by the brain to identify patterns of learned information that is contained in the billions of signals emanating continuously from our sense receptors. It is also the phenomenon that allows the brain to locate and combine a myriad of different neural networks in the brain for purposes of perception and cognition.
As for a definition of information. Isn't it about "learned patterns of sensory inputs" that we talk about when we refer to information?
Mary Catherine Bateson, talking about Greory Bateson's book "Steps to an ecology of mind" writes:
Having described mental systems, Gregory Bateson is able to lay out a number of other characteristics. He elaborates the notion that, in the world of mental process, difference is the analog of cause ("difference that makes a difference") and argues that embedded and interacting systems have a capacity to select pattern from random elements, as happens in evolution and in learning which Gregory calls the "two great stochastic processes." He explores the way analogy underlies all "patterns which connect,"

Peter Small
Author of: Lingo
Sorcery, Magical A-Life
Avatars, The
Entrepreneurial Web,
The Ultimate Game of
Strategy and Web
Presence
http://www.stigmergicsystems.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by jar, posted 07-20-2004 7:47 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by NosyNed, posted 07-21-2004 10:56 AM petersmall has replied

  
petersmall
Inactive Member


Message 198 of 254 (126225)
07-21-2004 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by sidelined
07-21-2004 8:23 AM


Re: Complexity in the brain
SIDELINED writes:
Well astrology is nonsense and it too is a multi-billion dollar a year industry.So is homeopathy. no one ever became poor underestimating the gullibility of the public.
I’ve heard similar views expressed about neuroscience and the Internet. All are opinions based upon a bounded rationailty. To each, in their own personal worlds, other worlds can seem nonsense - irrespective of whether or not any of the worlds are based upon absolute facts.
Knowledge Management may seem nonsense if you take it to mean subjective knowledge. But, as Charles Knight pointed out, most knowledge management systems are really dealing with information. Thus, Knowledge Management to a marketing company using a database to create customer profiles and categories would hardly consider Knowledge Management to be nonsense.

Peter Small
Author of: Lingo
Sorcery, Magical A-Life
Avatars, The
Entrepreneurial Web,
The Ultimate Game of
Strategy and Web
Presence
http://www.stigmergicsystems.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by sidelined, posted 07-21-2004 8:23 AM sidelined has not replied

  
petersmall
Inactive Member


Message 201 of 254 (126294)
07-21-2004 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by NosyNed
07-21-2004 10:56 AM


Re: Strawman: Complexity between non-ancestors
NosyNed writes:
Then any sentences that say things like "Evolution can not increase complexity" are also meaningless. That is the point of the discussion. If we are unable to define and quantify "complexity" it is useless to continue the discussion on that topic.
It depends very much how you define complexity as it can mean different things to different people. The WORD IQ encyclopedia describes it as follows
Complexity
There are different senses of complexity:
* In information processing, complexity is a measure of the total number of properties transmitted by an object and detected by an observer. Such a collection of properties is often referred to as a state.
* In computer science, the study of how much time and memory a computer algorithm may take is the field of computational complexity theory.
* Complexity is often used as a shorthand for the field that developed in the late 1980s around the use of mathematical and computational modeling of biological, economic and technological systems known as "complex systems" (sometimes complex adaptive systems).
* In the sense of how complicated a problem is from the perspective of the person trying to solve it, limits of complexity are measured using a term from cognitive psychology, namely the hrair limit.
* In mathematics, Krohn-Rhodes complexity is an important topic in the study of finite semigroups.
Some of these meanings can be quantified, but as is pointed out in the article:
"Complexity is just a word" by Peter A. Corning, Ph.D. Institute for the Study of Complex Systems
http://www.complexsystems.org/commentaries/jan98.html
quantifying complexity can have very little value if it refers to the complexity in non linear systems (i.e., biological systems).
The issues relating to definition and quantifying complexity are brought out in an ISSS discussion at:
We've got some trouble | 404 - Resource not found
Perhaps the best attitude to have towards complexity is that described by Peter Coming, who wrote:
Rather than trying to define what complexity is, perhaps it would be more useful to identify the properties that are commonly associated with the term. I would suggest that complexity often (not always) implies the following attributes: (1) a complex phenomenon consists of many parts (or items, or units, or individuals); (2) there are many relationships/interactions among the parts; and (3) the parts produce combined effects (synergies) that are not easily predicted and may often be novel, unexpected, even surprising.
At the risk of inviting the wrath of the researchers in this field, I would argue that complexity per se is one of the less interesting properties of complex phenomena. The differences, and the unique combined properties (synergies) that arise in each case, are vastly more important than the commonalities. If someone does develop a grand, unifying definition-description of complexity, I predict that it will add very little to the tree of knowledge (pardon the pun). But that shouldn't deter us from trying; the very effort to do so will surely enrich our understanding.

Peter Small
Author of: Lingo
Sorcery, Magical A-Life
Avatars, The
Entrepreneurial Web,
The Ultimate Game of
Strategy and Web
Presence
http://www.stigmergicsystems.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by NosyNed, posted 07-21-2004 10:56 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
petersmall
Inactive Member


Message 206 of 254 (126644)
07-22-2004 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by contracycle
07-22-2004 8:47 AM


Re: Complexity in the brain
contracycle writes:
It sounds to me like you guys are having a semantic difference
Yes. This is very common in all forums. It is particularly interesting for me as an author because I have to write stuff that might be read by people with all kinds of technical (and non technical) backgrounds.
When I'm preparing to write a new book, I visit a number of different forums to see how they react to different ways of explaining concepts. Semantic differences are a big problem, but an even greater problem is that people seem to use a heuristic method of reading information, whereby they reinterpret not only words but whole concepts into their own cognitive models. This can lead to total misunderstandings and can even promote extreme antagonism.
Antagonisms usually come from people who have a particular cognitive model to defend. Any trespass - into their area of special interest that doesn't conform with their views - is attacked with vigor. This is particularly noticeable when a subject area has many different branches.
The evolutionary psychology forum [evol psych] is a good example here. This subject area includes hundreds of different disciplines, where words and concepts can have all kinds of different meanings to the different groups.
The extent of the diversity was described recently by one of the [evol psych] moderators, who wrote:
It occurs to me that Evolutionary Psychology is at the crossroads of numerous specialist disciplines. There is not just evolutionary biology and psychology, but numerous branches of biology and psychology from memetics to genetics to psychopathy to social psychology to ethnology and so on.
I hesitate to even attempt to list all the underlying disciplines as I am bound to exclude more than I include. As consciousness is also an important issue, and consciousness is made up of at least 100 disciplines, possibly as many as 200, then the list for Evol Psych must be long indeed.
Robert Karl Stonjek
Since the beginning of this year, I've been trying to understand semantic problems from the point of view of how the brain processes information. This has opened up a pandora's box because I had no idea how extensive this subject area is. But, what I have discovered is that brain imaging techniques is shedding a whole new light on this problem.

Peter Small
Author of: Lingo
Sorcery, Magical A-Life
Avatars, The
Entrepreneurial Web,
The Ultimate Game of
Strategy and Web
Presence
http://www.stigmergicsystems.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by contracycle, posted 07-22-2004 8:47 AM contracycle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by CK, posted 07-22-2004 2:40 PM petersmall has not replied

  
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