Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Evolution of complexity/information
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 29 of 254 (123475)
07-09-2004 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Hangdawg13
07-09-2004 7:40 PM


If a bacterium could spontaneously obtain the genetic material to become a tri-celled organism with new physical features and new functions and overall increase in ability to survive, this would indicate an increase in complexity and information.
Only if you assume that the complexity of a genotype is equivalent to the complexity of a phenotype.
It seems to me that all genotypes are of equal complexity; given a certain genetic sequence there's no way to determine if it's the genes for one enzyme or a multi-cellular body plan. All genetic sequences would appear to be of equal complexity, including the junk stuff.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Hangdawg13, posted 07-09-2004 7:40 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 72 of 254 (124250)
07-13-2004 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Loudmouth
07-13-2004 3:51 PM


The cells between the toes have lost the ability to go through programmed cell death (apoptosis).
I actually think the argument is creationist-proof.
If they had lost apoptosis, they would simply not have the binding sites for BMP.
In this case, they've actually gained an enzyme that blocks BMP. I'm fairly sure it's going to be impossible to substantiate the claim that this represents a loss.
Good try, though. You really hit the creationist impression dead-on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Loudmouth, posted 07-13-2004 3:51 PM Loudmouth has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 73 of 254 (124251)
07-13-2004 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Hangdawg13
07-13-2004 1:26 PM


But this is only a "gut" feeling enhanced by the law of entropy.
The "law of entropy", as you put it, actually mandates that evolution must occur.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Hangdawg13, posted 07-13-2004 1:26 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 80 of 254 (124374)
07-14-2004 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Hangdawg13
07-14-2004 1:48 AM


What's that dragging sound I hear?
Supposing this is correct, this would be an increase of 1 pair in a strand of millions and millions of pairs. Hardly a significant increase, but an increase none the less.
Oh, right. It's HD moving the goalposts again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Hangdawg13, posted 07-14-2004 1:48 AM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 127 of 254 (125067)
07-16-2004 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Hangdawg13
07-16-2004 2:30 PM


Ok, but what natural selection factor would drive an insect to mutate so that it forms a larvae that has no reproductive ability and then puts itself in the very precarious position of turning itself into soup for somedays before adult forms?
It eliminates competition for resources between adult and juvenile conspecifics by creating separate niches for adult and juvenile stages. For the competitive insect world it works great which is why metamorphosis is so common in the insect world.
And what natural selection factor would cause other structures around the light sensitive cells to form improving the ability to evaluate light?
I would presume that the advantages of better eyesight would be so varied and useful as to be obvious. Are you telling me you can't see any advantage whatsoever in seeing farther, in more light conditions, and with better clarity? Just ask a camera salesman.
This message has been edited by crashfrog, 07-16-2004 03:42 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Hangdawg13, posted 07-16-2004 2:30 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Hangdawg13, posted 07-17-2004 12:11 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 133 of 254 (125145)
07-16-2004 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Hangdawg13
07-16-2004 9:42 PM


A layer of cells over an area of light sensitive cells offers absolutely no advantage in seeing light better until it evolves translucentness,
The lens of the eye is a bubble of fluid held between two thin, clear membranes.
But a simple pinhole surrounded by a muscular iris does very well, too. (Surely the construction of a simple pinhole camera is something you're familiar with.)
Unless there is some specific evidence to show how this happens, perhaps you all might understand my viewpoint better when I say it takes a little imagination to get it to work.
The natural world provides us with the evidence - for every step on the path to human-like eyes, there's an organism that uses that step for eyes even now. All you have to do is look at the animal kingdom to see the steps of eye evolution.
What doesn't make perfect sense to me (and correct me if I'm wrong) is how the system of metamorphosis evolves by small steps because I can't imagine any possible way that it could happen by small steps.
Why? It's simply the recycling of cellular machinery employed by every organism on the path from gamete to adult. There's nothing that happens in an insect's metamorphosis that doesn't happen to literally every living thing, at one part of its life.
again it seems to me that HOW is left up to the imagination and scientists simply assume that it happened by natural selection because, well, how else is it going to happen?
I wouldn't say the "how" is left up to the imagination; rather, it's left up to the hundreds of thousands of biologists laboring in their field in laboratories and universities all over the world. What did you think biologists did all day? Go over stuff they already knew?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Hangdawg13, posted 07-16-2004 9:42 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 134 of 254 (125147)
07-16-2004 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Hangdawg13
07-16-2004 10:08 PM


I don't get the mechanics of how certain things did evolve, and I don't think I ever can unless I see evidence of how it evolved.
You might want to consider a degree in the biological sciences. You could help us answer some of these questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Hangdawg13, posted 07-16-2004 10:08 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 147 of 254 (125221)
07-17-2004 1:54 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Hangdawg13
07-17-2004 1:01 AM


Even more so, I'm still at a loss for how these different structures evolved through small steps.
You're free to join the leigion of biologists hard at work on the problem. All it takes is a little school.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Hangdawg13, posted 07-17-2004 1:01 AM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 172 of 254 (125551)
07-18-2004 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Hangdawg13
07-18-2004 11:33 PM


I almost want to forget Mechanical engineering and be a scientist just to find out for myself what is right and put a new theory in the ring...
Darwin did it with a degree in theology. Who knows what you might do? Science isn't something that requires a degree; it just requires a degree's-worth of education in order to truly understand the methodology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Hangdawg13, posted 07-18-2004 11:33 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024