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Author | Topic: Discerning Which Definition to Use | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Peg Member (Idle past 4951 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
purpledawn writes: It's also dishonest to put a figurative meaning to a word when the literal meaning is called for in the sentence. as i've maintained, i dont believe there is an indicator in the passage that says the yom must be taken as a 24 hour day. I've stated many times now that a real 'yom' based on the account in genesis is actually only 12 hours. This is becasue the account says that the yom was the 'light' the light remains for only 12 hours, not 24. I dont believe you have any indicators for a literal reading...even the surrounding verses use day to mean all 6 days....if it can be used figuratively there, then it can be used figuratively in chpt 1 as well.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 823 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
actually, we are talking about how to determine the meaning of a word when a word has multiple means....as purpledawns OP asks Yes, exactly as I said. Don't act like you corrected me.
Peg writes: 1. Context of the immediate passage. quote: PLEASE, Peg. How can you tell me this means anything other than a literal 24 hour day? Do no reference genesis 2, it has no bearing here. you have not addressed me on this. Rather, you have accused me of being argumentative about it.
Peg writes: 2. Other verses of the bible revealing more information on the subject In some cases, yes. like when it is unclear and the word requires more background. But in cases where it is absolutely clear (like the verses I have quoted 5 times now), the sentence itself is sufficient. I would also point out that since there were numerous writers of the bible and at different times, referencing other texts wouldn't be a very solid test. It would be like me referencing "the Sorceror's Stone" to give meaning to "Half Blood Prince", for a single word. If it were a brand new, made up word, it would be fine. but for a normal, every day common word, the surrounding text is sufficient in most cases (shhh, it's the first book I could think of. I am not a Harry Potter fan) As soon as you can give me a solid, no nonsense answer for this verse and how you do not understand it, I will move on. "Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan "Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu
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Peg Member (Idle past 4951 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
hooah212002 writes: In some cases, yes. like when it is unclear and the word requires more background. But in cases where it is absolutely clear (like the verses I have quoted 5 times now), the sentence itself is sufficient. its not absolutely clear in gen 1. the definition of the word yom is almost endless so its imperative that other verses are taken into consideration to help identify which meaning shoudl be used. Here is the definition for yom from the NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Original Word: יוֹם Transliteration: yom Phonetic Spelling: (yome) Short Definition: age Word Origin a prim. root Definition day NASB Word Usage afternoon* (1), age (8), age* (1), all (1), always* (14), amount* (2), battle (1), birthday* (1), Chronicles* (38), completely* (1), continually* (14), course* (1), daily (22), daily the days (1), day (1115), day of the days (1), day that the period (1), day's (6), day's every day (1), daylight* (1), days (635), days on the day (1), days to day (1), days you shall daily (1), days ago (1), days' (11), each (1), each day (4), entire (2), eternity (1), evening* (1), ever in your life* (1), every day (2), fate (1), first (5), forever* (11), forevermore* (1), full (5), full year (1), future* (1), holiday* (3), later* (2), length (1), life (12), life* (1), lifetime (2), lifetime* (1), live (1), long (2), long as i live (1), long* (11), midday* (1), now (5), older* (1), once (2), period (3), perpetually* (2), present (1), recently (1), reigns (1), ripe* (1), short-lived* (1), so long* (1), some time (1), survived* (2), time (45), time* (1), times* (2), today (172), today* (1), usual (1), very old* (1), when (10), when the days (1), whenever (1), while (3), whole (2), year (10), yearly (5), years (13), yesterday* (1). what prevents the yom in genesis 1 from being any of these definitions?
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 823 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
And there was evening, and there was morningthe first day. SIX TIMES NOW PEG. SIX TIMES YOU FORCE ME TO QUOTE YOUR BIBLE. See? you made me yell because you don't read. {ABE} let me add this.
Kenneth Gentry writes: The Hebrew word yom ("day") in the Genesis 1 account of creation should be understood in a normal sense of a 24-hour period, for the following reasons: (2) Argument from explicit qualification. Moses carefully qualifies each of the six creative days with the phraseology: "evening and morning." The qualification is a deliberate defining of the concept of day. Outside of Genesis 1 the words "evening" and "morning" occur together in thirty-seven verses. In each instance it speaks of a normal day. Examples from Moses include: Exodus 18:13: And so it was, on the next day, that Moses sat to judge the people; and the people stood before Moses from morning until evening. Exodus 27:21: In the tabernacle of meeting, outside the veil which is before the Testimony, Aaron and his sons shall tend it from evening until morning before the LORD. (3) Argument from ordinal prefix. In the 119 cases in Moses's writings where the Hebrew word yom stands in conjunction with a numerical adjective (first, second, third, etc.), it never means anything other than a literal day. The same is true of the 357 instances outside of the Pentateuch, where numerical adjectives occur. Examples include: Leviticus 12:3: And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. Exodus 12:15: Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall remove leaven from your houses. For whoever eats leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that person shall be cut off from Israel. Exodus 24:16: Now the glory of the LORD rested on Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days. And on the seventh day He called to Moses out of the midst of the cloud. The Genesis 1 account of creation consistently applies the ordinal prefix to the day descriptions, along with "evening and morning" qualifiers (Gen. 1:5, 8, 13, 19, 23, 31). Source Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given. "Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan "Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 823 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
Exodus 20:9-11 writes: 9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. how long are you to work, Peg? 6 thousand years? Taking 1 thousand off for the sabbath? "Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan "Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu
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Peg Member (Idle past 4951 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
i understand that you are sticking to 'morning and evening' as your determination of a literal yom of 24 hours
I dont. I look at surrounding verses which show yom is used figuratively within the passage, and the physical evidence which shows the earth wasnt created in 6 days and from there apply a figurative meaning to the yom in gen 1. Its that simple.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 823 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
Please see what I added by edit.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4951 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
hooah212002 writes: how long are you to work, Peg? 6 thousand years? Taking 1 thousand off for the sabbath? if the sabbath was still in progress when Moses wrote about it, then God had been resting for almost 2,000 years. If you take notice of Genesis you'll see that the sabbath day was never said to come to its end. Then another 2,000 years later the Apostle Paul spoke about Gods Sabbath, he told christians that God was still resting....thats almost 4,000 years after the fact. This is another reason why we dont take the genesis days as literal. so how long is Gods sabbath day? It was, and still is, a very long day indeed.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4951 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
hooah212002 quote writes: (2) Argument from explicit qualification. Moses carefully qualifies each of the six creative days with the phraseology: "evening and morning." The qualification is a deliberate defining of the concept of day. Outside of Genesis 1 the words "evening" and "morning" occur together in thirty-seven verses. In each instance it speaks of a normal day. So why doesnt he qualify the 7th day. He does not use 'and there came to be evening and morning a 7th day' If each of these days were simply 24 hours, why not include the 7th as a 24 hour day?
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 823 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
If you take notice of Genesis you'll see that the sabbath day was never said to come to its end. You've out foxed me on this one. What the hell are you talking about? Are you saying we are still in "the sabbath day" or" "the day of the sabbath"? You really have a way of making the bible fit your faith, eh?
Leviticus 12:3 writes: And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. How long does it take to cut foreskin?
Then another 2,000 years later the Apostle Paul spoke about Gods Sabbath, he told christians that God was still resting....thats almost 4,000 years after the fact. This is another reason why we dont take the genesis days as literal. How could god have been resting with all the killing he did? "Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan "Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 823 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
I'm going to read up on my hebrew and come back to this.
"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan "Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 823 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
It is used in the same sense, Peg. First day, second day....7th day. Every where else in the bible where yom is used in this manner it means one 24 hour day. I've already shown you an example verse.
Secondly, if yom in genesis 1 means anything other than a literal 24 hour day, why mention morning and evening? Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given. "Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan "Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu
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Peg Member (Idle past 4951 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
hooah212002 writes: You've out foxed me on this one. What the hell are you talking about? Are you saying we are still in "the sabbath day" or" "the day of the sabbath"? You really have a way of making the bible fit your faith, eh? well i dont say it, the apostle Paul says it at hebrews 4:9-11
There remains a sabbath resting for the people of God. For the man that has entered into God’s rest has also himself rested from his own works, just as God did from his own. Let us therefore do our utmost to enter into that rest. notice the expression, 'let us enter into THAT rest' He's talking about the sabbath day that began when God rested on the 7th day in genesis. This is why we say to take other bible verses into consideration before coming to a literal or figurative use of a word. Truth was revealed by God progressively thru the holy writings.
hooah212002 writes: How long does it take to cut foreskin? this 'day' can be taken literally, its the 8th day after a child birth, the length of time it takes to make the cut is of no consequence. Im not saying we never take the word yom literally.
hooah212002 writes: How could god have been resting with all the killing he did? he was resting with regard to 'creation' only. Genesis says he rested from his 'works' so we understand it to be his creative works that he rested from.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 823 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
this 'day' can be taken literally, its the 8th day after a child birth, the length of time it takes to make the cut is of no consequence. Im not saying we never take the word yom literally. And you can justify this how? I'll tell you how: every other instance yom is used in conjuction with a number (i.e.: fifth day, second day, etc.) it means a literal day. Have you got a way to tell how it is to be used here literally? "Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan "Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu
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Peg Member (Idle past 4951 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
hooah212002 writes: It is used in the same sense, Peg. First day, second day....7th day. Every where else in the bible where yom is used in this manner it means one 24 hour day. I've already shown you an example verse. Genesis says this about the 7th day
1:31After that God saw everything he had made and, look! [it was] very good. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a sixth day. 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth and all their army came to their completion. 2And by the seventh day God came to the completion of his work that he had made, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day from all his work that he had made. 3And God proceeded to bless the seventh day and make it sacred, because on it he has been resting from all his work that God has created for the purpose of making. The 7th day is mentioned a few times but nowhere does genesis conclude the 7th day with an 'evening and morning'
hooah212002 writes: Secondly, if yom in genesis 1 means anything other than a literal 24 hour day, why mention morning and evening? we believe this is figurative for darkness and light. God began his work on each day in the 'evening/darkness' a time when his creative works were not fully visible becasue they were incomplete....but in the 'morning/light' his completed works could be clearly seen in their completed state. So there was evening and morning a first/second/third day ect. Finally, on the 6th day, after the creation of Adam and Eve the came to be a new morning....in the light of this new day, all of creation became visible to onlookers. Its also important to understand why Genesis says God made the 7th day 'sacred' or holy. To be 'sacred' means that something has been set aside for a special purpose. The purpose of mankind and the earth has not yet been realised. Gods purpose for the earth and us is still ongoing. We are a work in porgress you might say. At the end of the 7th day, that purpose will be fully realised and the 7th day will see an evening and a morning.
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