Should religion be taught with evolution in schools?
This issue may be better addressed by a discussion on whether religion should be encouraged in education or not.
The subject of religion is very broad. Because decisions and consequent actions are based on ones religion whatever it may be, it's impossible to keep religious influence out of any action including educating.
Yes, the student should be made aware of and familiarized with the widespread presence of the evolutionary mindset. But if evolutionary teaching is to be seen as that of pure science, then why do scientists that support Biblical creation tend to be looked down upon? Please? Why do many teachers tend to prefer to teach evolution in the absence of Biblical truth? Honest science does not support evolution.
Biblical Christian religion is the usual target of long standing controversy. With such as the basis of self government and good behavior, why the big fuss toward throwing it out of public life? Is it not it that keeps you and me from wanting to harm each other?
Was it not the gradual, ongoing removal of the Biblical religious standard from our culture that accelerated the increasing rise and overflow of the chaos we see around us today? Freedom to live this standard that America's founding fathers gave us at great cost should never have been under attack as it now is.
Thank you for your replay. I hope you will find the following answers helpful for your quotes below.
Quote: More importantly the question is whether sectarian dogma should be presented as fact in schools - when the evidence is greatly against it,
I'm speaking of truth in its purity, not sectarian dogma. Does one have to force his religion in order to act it? Have I not previously said that all decisions and actions are based on ones religion whatsoever it may be, thus making it impossible to act apart from it? Even the person that claims to have no religion lives by his religion of "no religion."
Quote: How should we react to people who reject science while claiming to be "scientists"? .And the dishonesty noted among creationists hardly helps.
Does the attainment and support of scientific knowledge that supports Biblical truth disqualify the scientist that acquired it to the point that he should be counted as a quack? Should the knowledge gained be counted as sectarian dogma?
As for my question, "Why do many teachers tend to prefer to teach evolution in the absence of Biblical truth?",
You answered, "Because they prefer to teach the truth over false sectarian dogma."
Does truth fear falsehood or is it the other way around? Truth has no problem when presented beside the falsehood that it exposes.
Quote: That's an example of creationist dishonesty - perhaps not on your part, you may well have been deceived yourself. Nevertheless it is a fact that honest science overwhelmingly supports evolution,
Would you please inform me of a scientific or a mathematical law that supports evolution? It only takes one law to disprove it.
As for which is the truthful and which is the deceiving side, whether that which promotes evolution as science or that which supports the Bible, are we not more than sufficiently equipped to discern? We travel life's journey only once.
Quote: There's whole issue of religious freedom - which rules out the theocratic tyranny wanted by "Biblical Christian religion" (which is not Biblical nor very Christian). And then there's the very bad behaviour of those promoting it which rather contradicts the idea that their religion is the "basis of good behaviour". If it were its followers should be notably better behaved than most, rather than notably worse.
Although true that mishandling of Biblical truth abounds, does that excuse us to despise that which is genuine? That would only make us vulnerable to be drawn deeper into error. Shouldn't we beware of the possibility that scientific knowledge and its authority may also be corrupted to be used as a weapon to promote Godless tyranny?
As for my statement, "Was it not the gradual, ongoing removal of the Biblical religious standard from our culture that accelerated the increasing rise and overflow of the chaos we see around us today?",
you answered, "No."
OK. Don't we both agree that sin is the cause of the chaos I stated above? But what other than Biblical truth should we depend on for controlling sin? Please?
Quote: The Founding Fathers of America gave the freedom you want to take away. In part because of the abuses of the Puritans. Look up the Boston Martyrs. Look up the history of Maryland. The Founders ruled out religious tests for office. The Founders gave America the First Amendment - and the religious freedom there is the basis for keeping sectarian dogma out of schools. And how are you forbidden from "living the standard"? Think about that.
The first amendment protects the free exercise of good religion based on good conscience against governmentally imposed dogma that would compromise it. Please note the terms, "free exercise." Should the free exercise of good action based on good conscience be prohibited? But why do we have unbiblical humanistic dogma forced on us especially in our schools by our government that violates the first amendment right to abide by the Biblical mandate? Should we be led to believe that the Biblical mandate is bad so that unbiblical behavior may appear and thus promoted as good?
You stated, "Biblical creationism has no place being taught in a science class because it isn't science but it could be included - in all its many forms - in the module discussing the various creation myths."
Have you considered these statements made by Isaac Newton and Johann Kepler?
Newton? "I have a fundamental belief in the Bible as the Word of God, written by men who were inspired. I study the Bible daily."
“This most beautiful system of the sun, planets and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.”
Johann Kepler said he was “thinking God’s thoughts after Him.” when once asked what he was doing in his scientific work.
Scientific and Biblical truth go hand in hand. Where does any truth including that which is scientific come from but from God? Without conscience governed by Biblical truth, what would stop a scientist from performing destructive experiments on live humans?
As for your mention of the Law of Faunal Succession, how does that support amoeba to man evolution?
* * *
What does the term, "creationist" describe other than a person that trusts and believes the Biblically revealed fact that God, the Supreme of all beings created the universe including you and me? By whose standard that one should judge it wrong to believe this Biblical account?
What truth is the DOI paragraph below based on?
"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness---That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed"
Who are our rights thus based on? Who gave us the purpose of government?
Is the bad judgment against believers in creation truth based on a standard of a rival group called "evolutionists" that are at war against the Biblical creation account and believe that the Supreme Being that created and is holding us accountable is non-existent and unneeded? Who or what is this war over?
Although true we have several choices of brands of automobiles we may depend on for reliable transportation, only ONE choice is available for reliably transporting us through this present life and to the life beyond. If we don't believe this we will not relieve ourselves of the fact that we were told.
With education the process of imparting necessary knowledge, much of which is vital to our children that are our future leaders, what's the need to deprive them of the background support of the vital knowledge that we were created by Sovereignty that's holding us all responsible? Please?
quote:Oh I choose the one arrived at by consensus. It changes from time to time, and generally we're getting better. It's certainly preferable to the fictional standards of a god who got so annoyed with a few people not doing what he ordered them to do that he decided to drown not only the people who pissed him off, but also millions of innocent babies, people, animals etc. He's such a charmer, isn't he ?
Is human nature getting better? Please? The god that you spoke of is indeed fictional. God of the Bible is merciful to all including you and me.
Have we forgotten the scripture that says, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, . . . etc?" Although we are all corrupted by sin and deserve to die, why aren't we all dead by now if God is the way you described Him? What other god is waiting for us to accept an offer of mercy? Not only is God offering us mercy, but also redemption and power beyond our natural abilities to do good when we accept it. Scripture tells us that the condemned are those that choose to continue in their evil deeds beyond the offer of mercy. What would you do with a device you built that fails to accomplish your intended purposes for it despite all of your efforts to fix it?
As for the killing of the innocent, was God responsible for destroying the 62 plus million lives of unborn individuals before they could commit their first sin?
quote:Morality is a messy business - there's no perfect standard of goodness that can be defined - but we all know that deciding to drown an innocent child is more than a tad evil, don't we ?
But where did we get the Golden Rule? Is it a myth? Is the commandment to love our neighbor as ourselves a myth? It is the second to what great commandment given us?
Who decides that this knowledge is “essential”? Why is teaching creationism important to it? Why should we reject the findings of science that conflict with the sectarian teachings you accept? Why should we hold that any teachings of men are beyond challenge?
I hope the answers below will also answer all that you have above.
What knowledge do you count as essential?
Biblical truth is settled and as unmovable from debate as pi is unmovable from the value of 3.14. If the Biblical truth revealed to us cannot be trusted as reality then what hope do you and I have for redemption from our fallen nature and the consequent corruption around us? Do we even realize that we are fallen? The evolution mindset hides this vital fact. What other hope is there? Biblical truth is not from man and my speech is not based on mere belief of man's rhetoric, but based on personal testimonies as a witness to the power of Biblical truth. It's unfortunate that some Christians compromise their faith to believe evolution that counters Biblical truth.
If you own a good business how would you like for someone to smear it to make you appear as if evil? As for God seen as evil, I hope you read my post to Vimesey.
As I said earlier, scientific truth is also victimized by faulty interpretation and corrupt dogma that's meant to deceive and draw us away from Biblical truth. We witness today the same scenario as that at the time when Adam and Eve in the Bible were deceived into doubting God's word not to eat the forbidden fruit. The fall thus resulted. Interpretation and observations of the fossil record and the cosmos that supports evolution is the consequences of an anti-Biblical worldview.
A forgiven, redeemed life with God is far beyond sectarian dogma that I am also tired of. Such dogma is what makes the power of the cross non-effective as Paul warned in I Corinthians 1:11-17.
The truth of God enriches all knowledge and bring out the meaning of our lives and thus should never be removed from education.
quote:How do you tell the difference? Your truth is someone else's sectarian dogma, and vice versa, and neither of you have any objective criteria for making such judgments, not to mention that you may as well be arguing about elves and ogres.
If I told you the truth that water is wet, what would be your view? Is it that water is powder?
I thought that truth unites us by delivering from conflicting opinions.
quote:If "no religion" is a religion then try telling the guy with "no hair" that he has hair, or the guy with "no car" that he has a car. I wonder, is "no God" a god? If I say there's "no Jesus," does that mean there's a Jesus?
Please note the definition of "religion."
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs;
Something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience
∴ Actions according to ones belief that he has no religion thus makes his belief a religion.
quote:What counts is how you establish what is true and what is false. If you're relying solely upon real world data then your answers have a far better chance of being correct than if they're based upon myths and prayers.
Although we may establish on our own what we think is true or false or right or wrong, the Bible tells us what IS true or false or whats right or wrong. It is written: "The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, But a wise man is he who listens to counsel (Proverbs 12:15)."
quote:The Bible and science do not contradict each other. One revolves around spiritual knowledge, the other scientific.
Spiritual knowledge governs the doer of science.
quote:If Biblical behavior is the standard for good then we're in trouble. Fortunately we're a country of democratically established laws, not of some religion's interpretation of their holy book in the way of Isis, the Taliban and Iran. Perhaps you should read The Handmaid's Tale.
Our nation is a democratic republic--a democracy based on law. Otherwise, democracy alone would support evil if 51 percent voted for the evil. Our nations laws are based of the Bible. Where did we find the commandments not to kill or steal?
If I assume all of you correct as for why religion should be kept from education except for comparison of religions, may I ask if there's any concern for the bad side effects shown on the following links?:
The free exercise and expression of Biblical religion is not a forced, inappropriate teaching of its doctrine, but freedom to exercise its good fruit.
* * *
Is God murderous when He judges societies including its children, here are two helpful sights that should give insight. The first sight attempts to address the state of children that are not yet at the age of accountability.
Unbelief toward God is not like refusal to believe there's a such thing as a horse-like creature with a single horn called a unicorn, but is like ones denial of the presence of an elephant staring at him in his face.
* * *
As for you that demand proof that God of the Bible is not a figment of imagination and that the Biblical truth I shared is not the lofty words of fallen man, I need help! Please? To show me how I shall carry out the proof you want, please show me how to prove that your house, car, and computer have builders and that the builders are real. Please? Then I will follow your pattern. God has already proven Himself repeatedly. The proof is all around us if we care to observe. But when a person asking for the proof is asked will he believe God if proof is given to his satisfaction, his answer is generally "no." Is it really scientific proof that he wants?
Why do we find the many commands in the Bible to believe? It is because God of the Bible that knows no other God is the only one that deserves to be believed because He is the only one true. He is THE truth. Remember this that's written: "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him (Hebrews 11:6 )."? There's no such thing as "faith versus science." One may have faith either way: faith in God and His word or faith in the words of those that promote evolution as science. The scientist shares the results of his experiments that he witnessed. Has anyone ever witnessed millions of years evolution?
* * *
Finally, this "terrible, terrible" guy called a creationist would like to share the advantage of having the creationist mindset. Think of the owner of a half million dollar super performance sports car that enjoys his machine that drives like a dream. His respect and appreciation not only goes toward the assemblage of materials, but toward the builder who envisioned and lovingly built it with much precision, care, skill and ingenuity for it to serve the driver at its very best. So does the believer that God created as the Bible said appreciates creation, the laws that govern, and the infinite worth and sanctity of humanity that God fearfully and wonderfully made.
The driver that cares for the car only as an assemblage of materials is most likely to abuse it. Even though the builder of the car is paid for his work, he would see carless abuse of his creation as an act of war. The evolutionist that only sees the material side of humanity that's made in the image of God likewise is most likely to abuse it as well as himself.
* * *
As for whether or not to believe all that I shared with pleasure, let's please remember that we all have our appointments with reality that will concretely show what really is and what really is not good and bad, hopefully not too late, to act on what reality reveals to us.
I always enjoyed your music---Oops you are not Percy Faith that had an orchestra.
I speak religion as long as we are talking about religion and education. I think I said a plenty to you guys to the point that I may now taper off unless any of you may have any more unanswered questions. But I hope you wouldn’t mind my adding what I have to say below.
One of you said that you were an atheist. May I please share a few things I learned by talking with guys like you?
Atheism may only be professed based on denial. Is it possible for anyone to vehemently deny what he was never informed of? Scriptures tell us there’s none good--no not one (Romans 3:12)! We are all lil bad-bads! Our consciences bear witness of this whether we believe it or not. Don’t we all have that sense of guilt that tend to make us want to run from the “Police?” The possibility of damnation because of our fallen nature bears the weight of thousands of locomotive trios that pull long trains on our shoulders. Is this what leads some to the temptation to conclude that God is the cruelest of all beings and to deny His existence for apparent relief from this crushing weight?
But this requires forgetting the good news that God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish. . . (John 3:16).” When it’s necessary to turn someone into hell, God is in the position of a judge that puts his own son away for life for a crime that the son committed. What would we think of the judge if he spared the son only because it is his son? The judge would weep at the end of the workday. As written, God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
Because of the cross, (only what Paul said that he preached), the “banker” of whom we owe impossible billions forgave us of our crushing debt only under the condition that we honestly face up to the reality of and confess the impossible amount we owe. Who wouldn't take up on a bankers offer of such great forgiveness?
I remember the day when I came to that point the spirit of the Lord touched me and brought me peace that I never before knew. God proved Himself in a way no other person could have. For whoever may say, “been there done that,” I only advise not to allow whatever discouraged to lure away from this genuine offer.
You lil meany-meany guys picked on this po lil creationist so badly that you made me cry (for your sake)! But I'm encouraged that Mr. Reality will take you by your hands and bring what I shared to your memories.
Thanx, Percy for the picture of the Lamborghini that I downloaded to keep. It was the sports car of this nature that I had in mind when I talked. But my soul yet sorrows for you guys that even though you showed the car inside its factory, you think that the car somehow assembled itself. I also thank you for the picture of the elephant that you denied existed when it faced you.
Here are my answers to your statements that answered mine in the last post.
quote:There are quite a few questions you haven’t answered. But it seems you’d rather talk at us rather than discuss - even though this is a discussion group.
But Don't discussions give the opportunity to share information to help solve the issue discussed?
Is it possible for anyone to vehemently deny what he was never informed of?
quote:Thanks for the implicit admission that God is not at all obvious - that we need to be told about him. Although it would be rather better if you actually used this assertion to make a relevant point.
Our wayward nature tends to blind us to God's noon day presence, thus making it necessary that we be informed of Him.
Don’t we all have that inward sense of guilt that tend to make us want to run from the “Police?” (God)
quote:No, we don’t. I don’t claim to be perfect or even more than averagely good, but that’s enough for me.
Thanks for your admitting that you are not perfect as none of us are. But isn't there a need for us to do something about it? May we go from here?
Is this what leads some to the temptation to conclude that God is the cruelest of all beings and to deny His existence for apparent relief from this crushing weight?
quote:The real reasons are the Bible and Christian theology. The former paints God quite badly in a number of places while the latter often implies it.
Or is it only according to limited understanding that God is painted badly? Do you think that your views of the Bible and Christian theology are perfectly true even though you admitted that you are imperfect?
quote:And if God is all Christians say he is then he knowingly created that situation. Which doesn’t make a lot of sense (not to mention that Calvinists have a quite different take).
But we are concerned more of what the Bible says than what people say. Are you sure you correctly understood all you were told about God? Are you sure you are not without a full unbiased understanding of what the Bible says about Him? Should we blame God for man's fallen, corrupting nature? Where is your heart when reading or hearing what’s said in the Bible? To see God the way we see imperfect man is fatally erroneous.
quote:Somebody who is not aware of the alleged debt, does not trust that the person making the offer has any authority to do so and who finds the additional conditions - which you left out a rather high price. (Not to mention the disagreements over that price among Christians).
Ones ignorance of his debt does not negate the fact that he owes it. It's unfortunate that many failed to trust the Lord's precious offer of forgiveness and consequently brought unto themselves very great loss. There are Christians that you may trust.
quote:And you also said - or at least implied - that you’d abandon your faith in God if the Noah’s Ark myth turned out not to be literally true. That doesn’t make a lot of sense.
When and where did I say that?
quote:Why? You’re hardly the first person to preach untruths at us.
Although admitting yourself imperfect, you yet unquestionably trust your judgment that shared knowledge based on Biblical truth is untruth? If that's so then all I shared based on it appears only as foolishness. If you really think in your heart that knowledge based on the word of God is untruth, then why aren't you consistent with it in all points of your life even to the point that the commandments not to steal and kill appear as mythical so that you would violate them with no thought? Would you do unto others exactly what you wouldn't want done to you? I’m sure you would not!
I therefore cannot buy any of your or any of the other guy’s claims that knowledge based on God and His word with all of its wisdom is untrue. Neither can I buy any of your other claims against God. Do you daily show that as the way you really think? I doubt it. For one to think in any way that God and His word are undesirable and to be trashed is to fulfill the prime prerequisite to begin walking in and fulfilling the vision of Karl Marx. Is it not he that said "Religion is the opium of the people?" I’m sure none of you have any intention to go that path!
I think too highly of you guys to think you are truly against God! Your and the others speeches appear only to be from grudges.
Because there's conflict between the sights I found and shared and those you found and shared about teenage pregnancies, I will give you the benefit of the doubt rather than to argue even though I still trust those on the sights I gave. Yes, it's true that prayer is permitted especially in school as in the case of those praying around the flag pole.
However, that does not negate Biblical scripture (which I yet boldly speak for) that sternly warns against offending the "little ones (Matthew 18:6)" by keeping “religion” (Jesus, that is) away from our children in Education or anywhere. Such is part of Karl Marx’s vision for the coming generation. Religious truth is part of the whole that should never be left out. You probably by now read my last post to Paulk where I stated that I do not buy any of your or his claims against God and the Bible because your whole life and heart do not appear consistent with them.
The free exercise and expression of Biblical religion is not a forced, inappropriate teaching of its doctrine, but freedom to exercise its good fruit.
quote:It is indeed wonderful that Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists and Jews are all free to exercise Biblical religion.
Of course Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and Jews are free to exercise Biblical religion! That fact that unbiblical practices such as “honor” killings, the "untouchable" status of Hindus, and female circulation are prohibited here in America because of Christian based law makes them even more free here. .
Is God murderous when He judges societies including its children,..
quote:Uh, yeah! I guess you think being God makes it okay to commit atrocities.
Has scripture not clearly shown God’s reason for judging cultures? Have you forgotten God's mercy to the repentant city as shown in the book of Jonah?
Isn’t there a difference between murder and execution for crime? God judged the cultures and the people because the people saturated their culture only with what God is against and had no intention to repent despite the fact that God gave them much time. Look at the declining state of our society and those around the would today. Judgment has not yet arrived only because it is not yet time. But there’s still time for repentance for all.
But when a person asking for the proof is asked will he believe God if proof is given to his satisfaction, his answer is generally "no." Is it really scientific proof that he wants?
quote:But the answer is not, "Generally 'no'." You're just making that up. You've been accepting lies as truth for so long that you believe you have proof in your book.
I’m speaking what I have seen many times.
There's no such thing as "faith versus science."
quote:We've said that many times, including to you in this thread. Faith deals with the spiritual and means having no evidence but believing anyway, while science deals with the real world and requires evidence, explication, replication, consensus.
But faith deals with the natural also. Isn't the word, “faith” synonymous with the word "trust?" A merchant cannot survive without the faith (trust) of his customers. Even the above claims you made about science require faith (trust) in those involved do they not?
On the spiritual side, spiritual birth brings the natural man into realization and fellowship with the spirit of God. Isn’t fellowship far beyond evidence? It is as easy to have faith (trust) in God as it is in your favorite merchant. Genuine faith is not blind.
The phrase, “not seen” as spoken in Hebrews 11:1 is the description of the state of God as seen in cultures alienated from God. As in the case of the people of Mars Hill (Acts 17:22-34), people of darkened cultures need to trust and be made familiar with vital truth unseen in the culture.
quote:You're just going down the list of long ago debunked arguments one by one. The argument that you have to see something or it didn't happen is really brilliant. When you come home to a broken living room window and a baseball on the rug do you say, "There's no way to know how this window was broken because we didn't see it happen." No, of course you don't, that would be idiotic.
And what about all the work detectives and forensic technicians do? Would you just ignore it. Would you say, "How does one know how his fingerprints got on that gun? Did you see him put them there?"
But eye witness accounts are much more powerful are they not? God Himself witnessed His own work of creation. Speaking about forensic analyses, why is it that the scientists whose findings support the Bible tend to be marginalized? Is truth afraid of truth?
quote:And yet evangelical Christians are among the most vehement of climate change deniers. They want to be good stewards of the environment because it is God's creation, but they don't believe God's power would permit human destruction of climate and so tend to be on the side of exploitation of resources. They're in favor of use of coal and fossil fuels, and in favor of opening up national parks and pristine wildernesses to economic exploitation.
Aren’t we cautious against the danger doomsday scares that may be used to bring about tyrannical mandates because of the scare? What about the past fear of population explosion and the consequent one-child policy that backfired? Such are the consequences of man’s trust in the word of man supposedly under the authority of science that’s handled as if above the word of God. Does true science demand the marginalization of Bible believers because of such mandates?
Don't we remember the rainbow as God’s promise to Noah that the world will not be again destroyed by water (Genesis 9:13)? With no mention of climate change, the Bible does prophesies coming judgment of which man may escape only by repentance.
Yes, we Christians believe in proper stewardship of the earth and its resources.
quote:Our lengthy experience is that Christians are big on message and short on Biblical knowledge.
But you know better than to lump all of any group into one bad group. Don't you?