Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 61 (9042 total)
71 online now:
kjsimons, nwr, PaulK, Percy (Admin), Tangle, Tanypteryx (6 members, 65 visitors)
Newest Member: maria
Post Volume: Total: 886,019 Year: 3,665/14,102 Month: 285/321 Week: 101/44 Day: 17/26 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Should we teach both evolution and religion in school?
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 394 of 1960 (740731)
11-07-2014 7:13 AM
Reply to: Message 393 by Colbard
11-07-2014 6:40 AM


How Does This Work?
But when it comes to defining something which is not demonstrable like the evolution theory, then we could show how things can change over time, and leave it up to the students to work out whether it was millions of years or something which happens in our world on a generational basis, and remarkably quickly.
I suppose a majority vote can define a belief, but am wondering how a majority could decide how old something is based on any sort of science or critical thought.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by Colbard, posted 11-07-2014 6:40 AM Colbard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 403 by Colbard, posted 11-07-2014 9:58 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 416 of 1960 (740914)
11-08-2014 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 415 by Colbard
11-08-2014 7:08 AM


What To Teach And Why
Personally, I believe that education should be as true as we can practically make it. It should discuss all of the religions, for example.
I believe that there is true religion and true science and that the two are perfectly harmonious.
I agree in that I believe that there is one truth---which is what we all may find out once we die--if then.

Former EvC members Robin Rohan and Buzsaw may have found out what is really true---then again, maybe they just died and there is no afterlife.

I also agree that there is by definition a true science, but what makes you think they are not pursing that now? After all, what hidden agenda or ulterior motive could current science have--if not to further educate and enlighten humanity?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by Colbard, posted 11-08-2014 7:08 AM Colbard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 420 by Colbard, posted 11-08-2014 9:01 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 579 of 1960 (741991)
11-16-2014 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 573 by Colbard
11-15-2014 8:41 PM


Re: OC
.... But in your reckoning the whole world cannot be wrong and deceived can it? That is just not possible is it?
Why would God want to trick us?

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 573 by Colbard, posted 11-15-2014 8:41 PM Colbard has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 720 of 1960 (743267)
11-29-2014 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 711 by Colbard
11-28-2014 9:28 PM


Re: Belief in science instead of fantasy ...
Colbard writes:

...we should teach faith (that works by love) and reasoning in school.

While I agree that reasoning should most definitely be part of n educational curriculum, I would rather see faith taught(or expounded upon) in church and at home.

Websters writes:


1a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty
b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2
a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3
: something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs
— on faith
: without question

It would not make sense to teach about something for which there was no evidence nor proof.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 711 by Colbard, posted 11-28-2014 9:28 PM Colbard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 728 by Colbard, posted 11-29-2014 11:40 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 721 of 1960 (743268)
11-29-2014 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 719 by Colbard
11-29-2014 8:12 AM


Re: Evidence by transformation
Colbard writes:

There is a state of mind which denies reality by its own system of beliefs, and claims to have evidence for its own system, while calling anything outside of it delusional.
It is impossible for such a mind to be able to escape from that state of denial, even though the evidences are all around.

Basically, the cure is Jesus. I agree....but not in school.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 719 by Colbard, posted 11-29-2014 8:12 AM Colbard has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 722 of 1960 (743270)
11-29-2014 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 358 by Colbard
10-30-2014 11:09 AM


Re: How to teach Reality
Colbard writes:

What does history show about individuals who stand out from the majority? It' not a criterion for truth but often the case.

True. The criteria for being a good and wise teacher involves logic, reason, and reality,however. A wise teacher will not simply teach from one book. (not even 66)

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by Colbard, posted 10-30-2014 11:09 AM Colbard has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 746 of 1960 (743987)
12-07-2014 4:21 AM
Reply to: Message 745 by Colbard
12-07-2014 4:16 AM


Re: Nonsense is the word
you seem to be convinced that I need an education from your world, because you think you know what I know, but you don't, and that is the truth.
I am a born again believer. I have a personal daily relationship with Jesus Christ. Based on that criteria, I should be able to know what you know and/or be able to interpret it. Right?

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 745 by Colbard, posted 12-07-2014 4:16 AM Colbard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 748 by Colbard, posted 12-07-2014 4:34 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 826 of 1960 (744371)
12-10-2014 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 819 by Colbard
12-10-2014 6:51 AM


Re: To the last few replies
Colbard writes:

The very fact that the argument has turned from the thread subject to the disputes over the two fields of thought, together with mud slinging and proof calling, shows that the opposition to creationism, is unable to focus on the subject at hand.

I have been at EvC for ten years, Colbard. The debates that I have had here have been varied. Sometimes they frustrate me. Often they challenge me, should I so choose to expand my knowledge or change my mind. In my opinion, there is a difference between debating with someone whom I do not know(in an internet familiarity sense) and with someone whom I do know.(such as jar or ringo) When we debate here, we are seeking to understand the world view and personality of our opponent--not simply to "win" the debate but so as to further understand how they think and why they think the way that they do.

Evolution theory is just a way of looking at things. It's a point of view, and it sees what it does for evidence of itself. just because it is widely accepted, including by intellectuals of high standing, does not mean it is flawless, or even altogether true.
It is my observation that the method of thought and the approach used to formulate an individual point of view differs between evolutionists(in general) and Biblical creationists(in general.) Your opponents tend to look at the evidence and they employ critical thinking skills. They do this to such a high degree that they rarely become believers in God such as you may be. (Though there are exceptions to every rule)

Creationism does not have to find evidence, because everything that exists, is proof of creation, rather than snippets from nature.
Belief does not need evidence. (some critics would disagree, however) The essence of belief does not normally engage in serious critical thinking nor the scientific method since these tools would assign a permanent skepticism and doubt into the belief...which believers quite naturally would want to avoid.

Once a person or society has decided to go down a certain track of philosophy which includes denial of the Creator, it is nigh impossible for them to see any evidence of truth outside of their head space.
Speaking strictly of subjective((individual and internally verified) evidence, I might agree with you. Certainly there would be no reason for me to disagree.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 819 by Colbard, posted 12-10-2014 6:51 AM Colbard has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 876 of 1960 (744591)
12-13-2014 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 875 by dwise1
12-13-2014 2:45 AM


IF A is False Than B MUST be False
dwise1 writes:

It is YEC that disproves Creation and even God. YEC accomplishes that impossible task by convincing its followers of false premises that say that if the earth is old, then Scripture has no meaning, and that if evolution is true, then God does not exist and everybody should just become atheists (I'm not making this up; over the decades several fundamentalists have insisted emphatically that those are the consequences of an old earth and evolution being true and nothing I could say would budge them from that position). Well, of course the earth is old and evolution is true, so according to their false logic Scripture has no meaning and God does not exist.

You hit the proverbial nail on the head! Surely there are better ways that we humans have for learning about our faith, our beliefs, and also in understanding science for what it is---not a religion nor agenda but simply a disciplined means of thought and reason.(with concrete results)

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God — only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 875 by dwise1, posted 12-13-2014 2:45 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 877 of 1960 (744592)
12-13-2014 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 874 by RAZD
12-12-2014 12:28 PM


Re: What will make you change your mind ...
quote:
The other question than can be asked is what I call the "Bill Nye Question" (from the debate with Ken Hamm):

What will make you change your mind?

Nye's (and my) answer is evidence, objective empirical evidence, that invalidates previous scientific theory.

Ken Hamm's answer was "nothing" -- and that is typical creationist belief, not bound by evidence or reality.


For me personally, evidence wont likely have me change my mind on a macro level concerning my belief and philosophy, but it well may change my mind on a micro level. What would more likely have to change for me to stop being a believer is my heart. My mind is always evaluating every possible bit of information, who said it, what their motive or intention was, and how belief fits in with human interaction and communion.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God — only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 874 by RAZD, posted 12-12-2014 12:28 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 879 by RAZD, posted 12-13-2014 2:34 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 885 of 1960 (744743)
12-15-2014 7:13 AM
Reply to: Message 884 by Colbard
12-15-2014 6:46 AM


Re: A Q of authority
How are you doing this morning, Colbard?

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo

If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God — only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 884 by Colbard, posted 12-15-2014 6:46 AM Colbard has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1153 of 1960 (841811)
10-22-2018 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1152 by ringo
10-22-2018 11:47 AM


Re: This is a thread about what should be taught in school
He (she?) will likely argue that despite all having different beliefs, everyone "believes" in this false religion known as science...and thus get deluded. creation likely believes much as faith does---in a literal Bible, a literal flood, literal Adam & Eve, Whales, snakes, and so on.

When it comes to education, however, we need to go with evidence rather than belief. That's my 2 cents.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1152 by ringo, posted 10-22-2018 11:47 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1154 by ringo, posted 10-22-2018 11:58 AM Phat has responded
 Message 1157 by creation, posted 10-22-2018 11:05 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1155 of 1960 (841816)
10-22-2018 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1154 by ringo
10-22-2018 11:58 AM


Re: This is a thread about what should be taught in school
Apart from picking on each other, science appears to be the common enemy...at least in creations world. I, on the other hand, believe that human wisdom and ego are the common enemies. Problem is, my critics can indict me on the same charge.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1154 by ringo, posted 10-22-2018 11:58 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1156 by ringo, posted 10-22-2018 12:09 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1249 of 1960 (842606)
11-03-2018 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1248 by creation
11-03-2018 3:14 PM


Fishbowl Assumptions

Some questions:

  • What science led us to conclude any difference between where we live (fishbowl) and outside of this?

  • Do we have a measurement as to where the "glass" begins? Is there a point that we have determined to be the edge of this hypothetical fishbowl which you continually mention?

  • Does the Bible mention or imply such a fishbowl?

    I need to know what you have found about the existence, measure, and scope of this hypothesis.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1248 by creation, posted 11-03-2018 3:14 PM creation has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1250 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-03-2018 3:56 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 1252 by creation, posted 11-04-2018 12:03 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15467
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1335 of 1960 (875478)
    04-27-2020 9:28 AM
    Reply to: Message 1334 by jar
    04-27-2020 8:54 AM


    Re: Evolution over Religion
    Surely after spouting such nonsense, you can proudly call yourself a Christian.

    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1334 by jar, posted 04-27-2020 8:54 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1337 by jar, posted 04-27-2020 9:46 AM Phat has responded

      
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.0 Beta
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2021