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Author Topic:   Should we teach both evolution and religion in school?
subbie
Member (Idle past 486 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 18 of 2058 (573356)
08-11-2010 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by archaeologist
08-10-2010 7:03 PM


for me, evolution should not be in the science classroom for it is not really science but based upon assumption, conjecture and hypothesis. prediction does not help it for the caliber of scientific prediction does not give the theory of ev. exclusive rights to results. in other words, predictions do not exclude other sources from producing the same results.

Quite right, as far as it goes. In fact, that's really an excellent point (albeit the only one). Any theory that makes better predictions than the ToE would be a good candidate to replace it.

So, let's look at how the ToE was used to make a real world prediction that was confirmed by a real world discovery.

There's a fish called Tiktaalik roseae. It lived 375 million years ago. It's an intermediate step between fish and tetrapods. Before it was discovered, a group of scientists predicted that a transitional species between fish and tetrapods lived between 363 and 380 million years ago. They found rock of that age and after several years of digging, discovered exactly what they predicted they would.

Now, please give just one example of a similar discovery by anyone using creation "science."


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by archaeologist, posted 08-10-2010 7:03 PM archaeologist has taken no action

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 486 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 30 of 2058 (573414)
08-11-2010 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by hooah212002
08-11-2010 9:54 AM


"I'd challenge you to a battle of wits, but you are only half prepared"

You give him far more credit than he deserves.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by hooah212002, posted 08-11-2010 9:54 AM hooah212002 has seen this message

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 486 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 42 of 2058 (573466)
08-11-2010 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by archaeologist
08-11-2010 8:19 AM


sorry but that is not a good example to use but it does demonstrate how desperate evolutionists are because that is not a fulfilled prediction, but conjecture to make the prediction look true.

The prediction was that an intermediate form between fish and tetrapods would be found in that location. In fact, a fossil of something that has body features demonstrating a transition between fish and tetrapods was found. These are facts. If you disagree, provide facts to dispute it, not supposition, wishes or rhetoric.

what you miss is, that secular science does not get to make the rules of what is or isn't science

This is absurd. Of course science makes the rules for what science is. You statement is as ridiculous as saying that baseball doesn't get to make the rules for baseball.

God does not go by secular science rules or models He goes by His will thus we do not have to predict because creation was a one time supernatural act and secular science is designed to avoid that fact.

This statement is a complete non sequitor. The discussion isn't about what any god does, it's about how science is conducted. That was the whole point of the quotes you yourself provided from Del Ratzsch. If you now wish to abandon Ratasch's position, I would certainly encourage you to do that. But don't try to change the discussion to how a god did what you think it did.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by archaeologist, posted 08-11-2010 8:19 AM archaeologist has taken no action

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 486 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 44 of 2058 (573512)
08-11-2010 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by archaeologist
08-11-2010 6:47 PM


christians do not need predictions, we already know what is going to happen in the future. science has proven over andover that it cannot predict the future (i.e. weather forecasts) and it has a hard time even predicting the past.

the idea of 'predicitions is just anothe rtool to lead people away from the truth. since creation was a one time supernatural act, we do not need to predict anything, we know what will take place and how things came to be.

one just has to accept or reject it. it is that simple.

You are of course free to believe these things if you like. But this is a forum for the discussion of scientific issues. Since you've simply dismissed science out of hand, there's really no point in you participating in this forum any longer.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by archaeologist, posted 08-11-2010 6:47 PM archaeologist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by archaeologist, posted 08-11-2010 7:19 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 486 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 46 of 2058 (573521)
08-11-2010 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by archaeologist
08-11-2010 7:19 PM


what i dismiss is the lies and misinformation you think is science but until you realize you are basing your conclusions, theories and hypothesis on limited data and excluded information, you will always be looking in the wrong direction and get the wrong answers.

but that is the way it is with secularists, they do not want the truth so they use the field of science as a starwman to exclud contributions that upset their neat little applecart.

This, of course, is what differentiates science from religion. Science actually understands that its conclusions are based on incomplete information. That's why science considers all conclusions to be tentative. Religion, on the other hand, has even less evidence supporting it than science, but takes its conclusions to be beyond question.

Am I the only one who thinks that's really funny?


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by archaeologist, posted 08-11-2010 7:19 PM archaeologist has taken no action

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 486 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 50 of 2058 (573530)
08-11-2010 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by archaeologist
08-11-2010 7:41 PM


you forget that origins did not go according to modern scientific models. it was a one time supernatural act which means science is the blind leading the blind

All you have done, and keep doing repeatedly, is display your ignorance, and your unwillingness to learn.

Why are you even here?


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by archaeologist, posted 08-11-2010 7:41 PM archaeologist has taken no action

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 486 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 51 of 2058 (573531)
08-11-2010 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by archaeologist
08-11-2010 7:47 PM


or modern scientific paper or article

The difference, of course, is that modern scientific papers are based on observations that anyone else can duplicate and either verify or refute. The bible is not.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by archaeologist, posted 08-11-2010 7:47 PM archaeologist has taken no action

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 486 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 54 of 2058 (573546)
08-11-2010 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by nwr
08-11-2010 8:41 PM


I think it's obvious he doesn't know what a lot of words mean.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by nwr, posted 08-11-2010 8:41 PM nwr has seen this message

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 486 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 70 of 2058 (573754)
08-12-2010 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by archaeologist
08-12-2010 5:24 AM


the source of origins comes from the Bible alone as science has no history or roots in that topic.
Emphasis added.

By this statement alone, the bold part in particular, you prove that you not only are not an archaeologist, but you don't know anything about archaeology.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by archaeologist, posted 08-12-2010 5:24 AM archaeologist has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Theodoric, posted 08-12-2010 6:30 PM subbie has seen this message

  
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