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Author Topic:   Should we teach both evolution and religion in school?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 176 of 2059 (671336)
08-24-2012 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by kofh2u
08-24-2012 10:15 AM


Teaching Evolution in the classroom with a comparison to what is said in Genesis is not teaching religion. Teaching what the various churches say they understand from their private interpretation of Genesis would be teaching religion in the classroom

It is easy to see the mischief resulting from such an attempt. A fundy biologist teacher would be sorely tempted not to teach science and to denigrate evolution as "mere theory", while even and even handed approach would border on denigrating fundamentalist religious beliefs in an inerrant Bible. Imagine, ofr example, if we also tossed in the creation myths that Greeks and Romans used to subscribe to. Wouldn't doing so lumb Genesis in with mythology, and therefore ridicule it?

I'm not suggesting that the comparison might not be doable without crossing some constitutional line, but I would not want my livelihood to depend on not crossing the line.

Further, one might well use the same reasoning to suggest that a science class could delve into astrology in physics class. Astrology and Genesis are not science.

But I believe a fair and tolerant review of each verse can be shown to parallel what the scientists today explain to us in regard to Cosmic Evolution.

I don't belief this is possible. Certainly not if there is to be a literal equivalence and corresponding order for each event described in Genesis.

Gen. 1:3 And God, (next, after the creation of the Heavens), said, Let there be light: and there was light, (which had been delayed by 400 million years after the Big Bang).

Except that there are some things in Genesis that cannot so easily (if at all) be reconciled simply by assuming the story is mere allegory written in proper timeline order. What about day and night existing on earth before there was a Sun? How about earth existing before the sun? Or the stars being created after the earth?

{OMG - An at least partially on-topic message. - Adminnemooseus}

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : OMG message.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by kofh2u, posted 08-24-2012 10:15 AM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by kofh2u, posted 08-24-2012 1:06 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 178 of 2059 (671373)
08-24-2012 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by kofh2u
08-24-2012 1:06 PM


n fact, by avoiding genesis directly in a comparison, the atheists and the bible bashers, the sexually immoral and the aggressive homosexual comunities have a field day telling the fellow students that science destroys the validity of what the bible says, rather than offering an opportunity for all to see that certain things are irrefutably and amazingly correct.

I don't buy it. I accept neither the classification of people who accept scientific explanations as deviants and atheists nor the postulate that there is anything to be gained by reconciling science with the views of fundamentalists.

I disagree that Genesis is amazingly correct. What you've illustrated is that some things in Genesis if taken allegorically, can be reconciled with some aspects of cosmology if you don't look at either the science or the Bible too critically. The fact is that electromagnetic radiation of all frequencies was present in the universe well before the 400,000 or so time point you refer to. But the universe was opaque prior to that point.

Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place,

Are you sure there were no inland waters on Pangaea? No lakes, rivers, or inland seas?

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by kofh2u, posted 08-24-2012 1:06 PM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by kofh2u, posted 08-24-2012 5:41 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 180 of 2059 (671475)
08-25-2012 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by kofh2u
08-24-2012 5:41 PM


2) Only visible spectrums produce "the day and the night" to which the Bible refers.

And how did this day and night on earth exist on day 1, without the sun which Genesis lists as being created on day 4.

Further you are equivocating here. The question about when light was created deals with the time before the universe became transparent to light.

3) ..."all the waters under heaven were gathere together into one place" is pretty specific.

Even if you try to get around it with the technicality of rivers and lakes, stil,l all were locked into Pangea which was surrounded by the Panthalassic Ocean.

So were the waters gathered together in one place or were they not? This turn of phrase is pretty slippery anyway. If you want to say that even with lakes and rivers, the waters are still "gathere together into one place" then we could describe that as pretty much the state of affairs that exists now. After all, the oceans are all connected together.

That would place the event exactly at the moment of the third evening of the Archean Era and the early morning of the Proterozoic Era, which compares with the similes used in Genesis:

Do you believe the sun existed at those times? How about the stars and moon? What does Genesis say?

You are not expected to "buy it," because you are against it and supplying the questions necessary for me to clarify for other readers how the exact words in each verse specifically are supported by science.

What I don't "buy" is that the two sides are deviants+atheists+homosexuals vs. creationists as you suggested. Wasn't my post clear on that point? I'll repeat the relevant part below:

NoNukes writes:

I don't buy it. I accept neither the classification of people who accept scientific explanations as deviants and atheists nor the postulate that there is anything to be gained by reconciling science with the views of fundamentalists.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by kofh2u, posted 08-24-2012 5:41 PM kofh2u has taken no action

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 185 of 2059 (728879)
06-04-2014 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by AZPaul3
06-02-2014 2:26 AM


Re: School is for Facts
I, personally, do not see any reason for having any religious classes in school.

I see some good in it. I suggest that studying religion is at least as beneficial as studying any historical subject. In fact I believe it would be a great idea to provide some instruction in both the Koran and the Bible, because doing so might aid in understanding your neighbor. Certainly other religions should be included.

For what it's worth, I remember spending a good deal of time discussing mythology in 8th grade English. That stuff was all part of someone's religion. What if we had spent time comparing origin stories. How long would that rlast before the fundies got in an uproar.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by AZPaul3, posted 06-02-2014 2:26 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 226 of 2059 (733564)
07-18-2014 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by Percy
07-18-2014 9:51 AM


I'm all for teaching the creationist concept of observational science in the classroom. It would be an excellent study in illogical and contradictory thinking, and a lesson in how belief can trump rationality.

A teacher would likely get fired for teaching this kind of truth in many jurisdictions. It might even be considered an infringement on the first amendment.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Percy, posted 07-18-2014 9:51 AM Percy has seen this message

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 230 of 2059 (733573)
07-18-2014 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by Diomedes
07-18-2014 11:23 AM


how precisely can they claim with all certainty that Genesis and The Flood happened as absolute facts if they were not there to see it?

What you are describing is exactly the creationists game. The argument would be that both secular notions and the Bible have exactly the same scientific support (namely none), so why do you believe your secular, rebellious, fallen crap instead of the word of God?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Diomedes, posted 07-18-2014 11:23 AM Diomedes has taken no action

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 245 of 2059 (733652)
07-19-2014 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by mram10
07-19-2014 12:13 PM


Complexity in any engineering area generally requires a complex design.

Here is one problem with your argument. Evolution describes a process within which new complexity can arise and thrive without any intelligent intervention.

Your counter examples all involve objects which cannot reproduce, cannot of themselves introduce new complexity, and which have no means of testing and rejecting any unsuccessful designs without human intervention. So one might be hugely skeptical about attempts to extend engineering notions into the realm of biology where life forms and nature do indeed posses exactly those properties and abilities.

In fact, your formulation of ID is simply a statement that you do not believe in evolution. That is, your argument is assertion and nothing more.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by mram10, posted 07-19-2014 12:13 PM mram10 has seen this message

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 266 of 2059 (737855)
10-01-2014 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by jar
09-30-2014 10:38 AM


The teacher should then go on to point out that scientists supporting creationism are all liars.

It's almost inevitable that some teachers would do this. But actually taking that last step would probably cross a constitutional line. It would get really awkward if the kids reached the conclusion themselves and challenged the teacher with it.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by jar, posted 09-30-2014 10:38 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by jar, posted 10-01-2014 8:38 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 268 of 2059 (737869)
10-01-2014 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by jar
10-01-2014 8:38 AM


I doubt the kids would be claiming to be scientists.

Who said they were.

Kids, once presented with the arguments and realities, can reach the conclusion that they have been lied to by creationists without being scientists. And unlike the teacher, students are not state actors obligated to avoid making statements disparaging of religion. Hence the awkward moment for the teacher who is supposed to moderate the discussion without lying.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by jar, posted 10-01-2014 8:38 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by dwise1, posted 10-01-2014 11:06 AM NoNukes has taken no action
 Message 270 by jar, posted 10-01-2014 1:22 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 272 of 2059 (737897)
10-01-2014 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by jar
10-01-2014 1:22 PM


duplicate

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by jar, posted 10-01-2014 1:22 PM jar has taken no action

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 273 of 2059 (737898)
10-01-2014 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by jar
10-01-2014 1:22 PM


Of course and it is even vaguely possible that there might be a Creationist who is simply ignorant and delusional and not a liar; but that is totally unrelated to what I said.

While what I posted was related to what you said, it was not intended as any kind of rebuttal. Perhaps you are a bit paranoid?

School teachers probably are not allowed to tell students that their pastors are lying to them even if that is indeed the reality.

Can you read?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by jar, posted 10-01-2014 1:22 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by jar, posted 10-01-2014 7:08 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 275 of 2059 (737905)
10-02-2014 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 274 by jar
10-01-2014 7:08 PM


What you posted is unrelated to anything I said and I never suggested teachers should say the pastors are liars.

The teacher is not going to be able to call any Christian a liar for expressing a belief. Period.

Here is the original exchange.

Jar writes:

The teacher should then go on to point out that scientists supporting creationism are all liars.

NoNukes writes:

It's almost inevitable that some teachers would do this. But actually taking that last step would probably cross a constitutional line. It would get really awkward if the kids reached the conclusion themselves and challenged the teacher with it.

Note that my response is directly to your point. It is your follow o response that makes no sense.

Jar writes:

I doubt the kids would be claiming to be scientists.

Where did I make such a claim? I discussed what what happen if the students concluded that the scientists were liars rather than hearing it from the teacher. Your reading is complete nonsense.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by jar, posted 10-01-2014 7:08 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by jar, posted 10-02-2014 9:10 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 281 of 2059 (737952)
10-02-2014 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by New Cat's Eye
10-02-2014 10:04 AM


Why are you being such a dick?

It's okay. I can take it. As I see it, my initial comment was ambiguous and jar chose to interpret it in a stupid way. My fault for not being clear.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-02-2014 10:04 AM New Cat's Eye has seen this message

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 282 of 2059 (737953)
10-02-2014 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by jar
10-02-2014 9:10 AM


However a Creationist who claims to be a scientist is by definition a liar.

1) No they are not.
2) A teacher who announces such a thing is on thin constitutional ice.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by jar, posted 10-02-2014 9:10 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by jar, posted 10-02-2014 7:53 PM NoNukes has seen this message

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 326 of 2059 (738608)
10-12-2014 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by djufo
10-12-2014 3:01 PM


In the case of science, we are forced conventionally to "believe" what "experts" say when in reality is all speculations.

One of the things that's always fascinated me about physics was the amount of stuff that individuals can actually verify for themselves. Perhaps if you weren't recommending reading anonymous ancient writings over stuff we can actually check on our own, you might be able to generate more credibility.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by djufo, posted 10-12-2014 3:01 PM djufo has taken no action

  
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